Exposing my ignorance

[pitpawten]

So I've done a bunch of reading, and I'm still not clear why I would need a C&R license in order to sell 1 or more Mosins to some friends (all MD residents) if I bought a crate.

I've spoken with my FFL and as I understand it, I can sell to whomever I want in MD as these aren't regulated firearms.

Am I missing some glaringly obvious hangup here?


Also (related), in my contact with classicfirearms they seem to indicate that if I drove down I could do a cash purchase directly from them and avoid FFL transfer fees etc. Is there any legal hangup with this as a non C&R holder?


Hey, you've got to ask to learn, even if it does indicate how little you know

 

[ken792]

ClassicFirearms is an FFL and you'll do the Form 4473 there.

You can't buy it with the intent to sell. If you bought 20 Mosins because you think it's cool, and then you end up selling a few because you get bored with them or you need money, then that's legal. If you bought 20 Mosins to give a few to friends, then that's illegal. However, if you go to an FFL have him transfer those Mosins to your friends, then could be legal.

 

[kalister1]

You are correct in all points. You do NOT need a C&R (FFL-03) to buy rifles out of State (In Person at the FFL) nor do you need one to sell rifles in State.

The C&R lets you get rifles and pistols that are C&R eligible mailed directly to your door.

Just a FYI/CYA when you sell the Rifles in State, make sure you get a bill of sale that states the buyer is NOT in violation of any State or Federal law when they purchase your Rifles. It would be a good idea to get their DL # too.

 

[StantonCree]

ClassicFirearms is an FFL and you'll do the Form 4473 there.

You can't buy it with the intent to sell. If you bought 20 Mosins because you think it's cool, and then you end up selling a few because you get bored with them or you need money, then that's legal. If you bought 20 Mosins to give a few to friends, then that's illegal. However, if you go to an FFL have him transfer those Mosins to your friends, then could be legal.

Please notice the underlying tones in this response and hopefully you understand what he is attempting to convey because this is a perfect answer

 

[pitpawten]

Not as ignorant as I thought

Guys, thanks much for the quick answers

These responses make it completely clear on all points. Definitely appreciate the clarification on intent. Heck once I get my grubby little hands on these, I may not want to part with anything!

I've heard the Mosin bug bites hard and symptoms show quickly

 

[yellowsled]

So I've done a bunch of reading, and I'm still not clear why I would need a C&R license in order to sell 1 or more Mosins to some friends (all MD residents) if I bought a crate.
I've spoken with my FFL and as I understand it, I can sell to whomever I want in MD as these aren't regulated firearms.

Am I missing some glaringly obvious hangup here?


Also (related), in my contact with classicfirearms they seem to indicate that if I drove down I could do a cash purchase directly from them and avoid FFL transfer fees etc. Is there any legal hangup with this as a non C&R holder?


Hey, you've got to ask to learn, even if it does indicate how little you know

That shows intent right there, be careful. That could be read as acting as a "dealer".


There is a grey line thats sometimes hard for the individual to see. When you step over, I am sure law enforcment will let you know.

 

[pitpawten]

Right on, I'm not interested in dancing on the line, let alone stepping over it, that's why I'm asking up front.

Appreciate all the answers!

 

[BeltBuckle]

Guys, thanks much for the quick answers

These responses make it completely clear on all points. Definitely appreciate the clarification on intent. Heck once I get my grubby little hands on these, I may not want to part with anything!

I've heard the Mosin bug bites hard and symptoms show quickly

you are already, quite clearly, infected.

no one here gets out alive...

 

[yellowsled]

Just get your C&R. You cant still be a dealer, but it makes it easier to get what you want.

 

[ken792]

What's wrong with having 20 Mosins all to yourself?

 

[cogcon]

What's wrong with having 20 Mosins all to yourself?

Then you will have to be called Yellowsled

 

[pitpawten]

Just get your C&R. You cant still be a dealer, but it makes it easier to get what you want.

Yeah, I hear that on being able to get things easier, just not too enthralled by the book/inspection idea.

It just strikes me as more paperwork (of which my desk is already full) when firearms represent such a small portion of the plates I'm spinning at any one time.

Might just need to go ahead and do it.

What's wrong with having 20 Mosins all to yourself?

I can build battlements around the 2nd story and mount them facing outwards like a castle!

 

[yellowsled]

Then you will have to be called Yellowsled

20 mosins, thats piddily crap!!! When you have 57 Mosins, come talk to me.

 

[reverendbeer]

20 mosins, thats piddily crap!!! When you have 57 Mosins, come talk to me.

I'm pretty sure at this point you should change your name to желтые сани.

 

[Boom Boom]

I've heard the Mosin bug bites hard and symptoms show quickly

Once you buy the first one, you're doomed! Absolutely fantastic bolt rifles. After you have one, all the lower-priced new bolt rifles at gun shops will seem like toys and have you doing a non-stop facepalm compared to how silky smooth even a mediocre Mosin is.

 

[pitpawten]

Absolutely fantastic bolt rifles. After you have one, all the lower-priced new bolt rifles at gun shops will seem like toys

Yeah I'm stoked.

I'm actually trying not to read too much about them ahead of time so that I wind up raising my bar too high (looking for a dead specific year/model/maker etc).

I'm hoping its just as you say that the run of the mill Mosin is going to be plenty accurate/reliable and if I want to get picky down the road I wont regret having started simple.

 

[Chaunsey]

as others have said, it comes down to intent, when the form asks you if you're buying the firearm for yourself, you need to be answering honestly yes.

now that said, when you buy a crate of mosins, you are most certainly buying for yourself, if after you've picked through them, you decide to sell a few duplicates or whatever, thats perfectly fine.

Yeah, I hear that on being able to get things easier, just not too enthralled by the book/inspection idea.

It just strikes me as more paperwork (of which my desk is already full) when firearms represent such a small portion of the plates I'm spinning at any one time.

it sounds a little daunting at first but its really not.

you fill out 4 pages of forms, send them out with $30, and then you just keep a simple binder with the required information each time you buy a gun takes less than a minute to record each purchase.

thats it, no further records, and inspections are incredibly rare, and even if you do get inspected, you can opt to go to them, they only need to see your records, not your guns.

theres really no downside to getting a C&R license.

 

[jeganrocks]

Just get your C&R. You cant still be a dealer, but it makes it easier to get what you want.

Just a question, please don't flame me. No malicious intent here, just curious. How can the guy who bought 2 crates and did a group buy not be seen as a dealer?

 

[smoothebore]

Just a question, please don't flame me. No malicious intent here, just curious. How can the guy who bought 2 crates and did a group buy not be seen as a dealer?

It's pretty simple really. The ATF says you can't run a business on a C&R license. To buy two crates of Mosins and split up the costs ammong a bunch of guys equally, to just cover the purchase and shipping costs, is not a business. A business makes money, as in profit to live on, so breaking even with some new friends is not running a business.
I believe you're thinking of a dealer as anyone who buys and sells guns. As C&R license holders, we all buy and sell guns, for our collections. We are not in business.

 

[Chaunsey]

It's pretty simple really. The ATF says you can't run a business on a C&R license. To buy two crates of Mosins and split up the costs ammong a bunch of guys equally, to just cover the purchase and shipping costs, is not a business. A business makes money, as in profit to live on, so breaking even with some new friends is not running a business.
I believe you're thinking of a dealer as anyone who buys and sells guns. As C&R license holders, we all buy and sell guns, for our collections. We are not in business.

you dont have to break even either.

making a profit on a purchase is not enough to be considered dealing in firearms.