Eagle Arms Shows ban 80% receiver sales

[dblas]

The promoter has already stated to one of our members that he was not threatened. I take people at their word. Call the promoter yourself and confirm it:

He is probably already on a first name basis with the promoter and may have a bit more information than the promoter is willing to put out publicly since he is an FFL and sets up at most of the promoters shows.

 

[IronDuck]

Its a sticky situation for the business, I feel for them, but they made the wrong call, my humble opinion. It might have been an effort to avoid political backlash, it might have been their own humble opinion of whats right for their business, they may have received calls from vendors.
VENDORS Please Mr. show promoter, I am very scared of the sale of this type of product at your gun show, please protect us and help us keep the streets safe by banning there sale" Promoter: Oh very well, they only occupied 5 of my tables last show, I will deny their applications for tables from now on, its good business and the politicians will like me better.

The banning of "potential gun components" for sale at a gun show. In my laymen's, (is that not PC should it be layperson... oh forgot, I don't care) opinion totally sucks. The fact that criminals are or may be buying them and creating a firearm out of them, also totally sucks. Getting hit by someone swinging a board with a nail in it, Really sucks, look out Home Depot, there may be some downsizing on the horizon! Ford, Chevy, there were a significant number of hit and runs, DUI fatalities, property damages in the $1,000,000.00's the last few months alone driven by legal law abiding citizens and criminals that somehow bi-passed the system and drove without, licenses, insurances, inspections, training, all four tires, some with intent to do harm to other humans, that also really sucks! I saw a report last night indicating hot tub injuries tripled in the last 12 months, staying in too hot water too long was a large contributor, if the hot tub company didn't allow the buyer to control the heat of the water and set it a standard cool many of those injuries could have been avoided!

Who doesn't want to keep firearms out of criminals hands, other than a few very stupid politicians and maybe a few Hollywood pukes, that use it for their own twisted agendas, NOBODY!
Getting our own forum members to snipe at each other over it proves just what a hard topic this is to manage!

Disregarding and or infringing on our own Constitutional Amendments is not acceptable and or manageable way to stop it. Banning and prohibition does not work for a free society. Lets try to stay free. Put the parts back on the table, sell them, if one of the buyers says: I'm a gang member and gonna go shoot somebody with this, take it back and refund his money. If he doesn't say that but is gonna do it, lets hope the stupid F~k waves it threateningly at one of our trained, carrying and ready members.

 

[teratos]

You have no idea how bad it is. I was recently involved in a case where a MoCo judge knocked approx. 5 years off the sentence of a guy who was in this country on a green card. He had raped a nine year old child and has now been released to home detention, to be supervised by a private company no less. There is an ICE detainer but the judge essentially gave the middle finger to the feds and said that he can voluntarily turn himself in when his home detention is finished. Yeah.....that's gonna' happen. In no time, he will disappear like a fart in the wind. I promise you that this once great state's level of libtardia is WAY worse than you can possibly imagine.

If I am diagnosed with a terminal illness I'll PM you for the address.....

That's interesting.

May I ask how you serialized them? Where did you obtain a serial number? How did you affix it to the rifle/receiver? Did you record the serial number with any organization or just your own private records?

Thanks.

I electro-etch them. I get stencils from: http://www.dogfightink.com/stencils.html
I just make them up using my initials and a number, GD0001 etc
Why on earth would I record my serial numbers with the government?

 

[Nickberg500]

He is probably already on a first name basis with the promoter and may have a bit more information than the promoter is willing to put out publicly since he is an FFL and sets up at most of the promoters shows.

Are you talking about me or the guy I spoke with at eagle arms?

 

[lazarus]

The problem I have with this is that the seller did not sell a firearm and broke no laws. The buyer did not purchase a firearm either. If the buyer is prohibited, would only be breaking the law once the item became a firearm by legal definition. Where does it end? They need to stop blaming the item and the seller and go after the law breakers. Next thing will be muzzle loader kits will be banned.

What happened is bad PR. Even if the AG didn't threaten the person running the show with anything.

Last I checked, the gun control crowd hates gun shows about as much or more than guns themselves. There are apparently all kinds of loopholes and what not.

80% are also under a microscope by authorities and law makers as well as gun control groups. They are itching for anyway to control them more or ban them.

Guns aren't a crusade for everyone. Pro or anti. For the promoter/operator I am assuming they are a business. How much business are they going to loose if they ban 80% sales? They might lose a table or two. Maybe even a little more if their move pisses off some vendors, not just the one or two whose entire business/tables seems to be 80% and parts kits. How many attendees are they going to loose? Probably only a small number.

Okay, they take a few hundred dollar hit a show. What is the downside if this ends up being a LOT of really negative news? Legislation that shuts down gun shows would probably be the worst case, but your business is gone then. Possibly a lot of negative PR, which might not scare away many of your customers or vendors. Could be legislation that restricts your vendors more than just 80s getting banned or regulated. Now you've lost more business.

Also fewer cops staking out your shows possibly. That might have a knock on factor of increasing vendor/attendee comfort level.

 

[Ponder_MD]

If I am diagnosed with a terminal illness I'll PM you for the address.....

I electro-etch them. I get stencils from: http://www.dogfightink.com/stencils.html
I just make them up using my initials and a number, GD0001 etc
Why on earth would I record my serial numbers with the government?

In case of theft? I'm still new-ish to civilian firearms ownership so I ask dumb questions sometimes.

 

[Nickberg500]

In case of theft? I'm still new-ish to civilian firearms ownership so I ask dumb questions sometimes.

If it gets stolen, you'll likely file a police report and give them the serial number then. Otherwise you're registering yourself which is bad.

 

[alucard0822]

The problem I have with this is that the seller did not sell a firearm and broke no laws. The buyer did not purchase a firearm either. If the buyer is prohibited, would only be breaking the law once the item became a firearm by legal definition. Where does it end? They need to stop blaming the item and the seller and go after the law breakers. Next thing will be muzzle loader kits will be banned.

This, so someone bought a lawful product from a gun show, later committed a crime with it(felon manufacturing an 80%). The gun show is prohibiting that product from being sold at their show again, effectively becoming a public supporter of the people that want to ban their business? Yea, F-them, so where does it end, banning uppers, parts, barrels, BP arms, maybe even criminal mishandling of beef jerky. There has to be a better way to handle any real or perceived problem than Fudding out.

 

[davsco]

Technically if you so much as mark where the hole goes.

unless you have a code section, i don't think so. no way just marking up a piece of plastic takes it past 80%. plus, effectively the jig it ships in denotes where the holes etc go.

 

[lazarus]

Its a sticky situation for the business, I feel for them, but they made the wrong call, my humble opinion. It might have been an effort to avoid political backlash, it might have been their own humble opinion of whats right for their business, they may have received calls from vendors.
VENDORS Please Mr. show promoter, I am very scared of the sale of this type of product at your gun show, please protect us and help us keep the streets safe by banning there sale" Promoter: Oh very well, they only occupied 5 of my tables last show, I will deny their applications for tables from now on, its good business and the politicians will like me better.

The banning of "potential gun components" for sale at a gun show. In my laymen's, (is that not PC should it be layperson... oh forgot, I don't care) opinion totally sucks. The fact that criminals are or may be buying them and creating a firearm out of them, also totally sucks. Getting hit by someone swinging a board with a nail in it, Really sucks, look out Home Depot, there may be some downsizing on the horizon! Ford, Chevy, there were a significant number of hit and runs, DUI fatalities, property damages in the $1,000,000.00's the last few months alone driven by legal law abiding citizens and criminals that somehow bi-passed the system and drove without, licenses, insurances, inspections, training, all four tires, some with intent to do harm to other humans, that also really sucks! I saw a report last night indicating hot tub injuries tripled in the last 12 months, staying in too hot water too long was a large contributor, if the hot tub company didn't allow the buyer to control the heat of the water and set it a standard cool many of those injuries could have been avoided!

Who doesn't want to keep firearms out of criminals hands, other than a few very stupid politicians and maybe a few Hollywood pukes, that use it for their own twisted agendas, NOBODY!
Getting our own forum members to snipe at each other over it proves just what a hard topic this is to manage!

Disregarding and or infringing on our own Constitutional Amendments is not acceptable and or manageable way to stop it. Banning and prohibition does not work for a free society. Lets try to stay free. Put the parts back on the table, sell them, if one of the buyers says: I'm a gang member and gonna go shoot somebody with this, take it back and refund his money. If he doesn't say that but is gonna do it, lets hope the stupid F~k waves it threateningly at one of our trained, carrying and ready members.

Some of your examples though legislators did step in to limit or control things. Or regulatory bodies.

Hot tubs can't be set over a certain temperature because of scald risks. They generally have timers too. A user has to almost be intentionally circumventing things to put themselves at risk (improper installation or doing things like intentionally resetting the temp high).

Home improvement stores by law and regulation do certain things.

You might not notice, but anything in an aerosol dispenser that uses hydrocarbons for pressurization you need to be 18+. A lot of other things you need to be 18+ to purchase. Stores are required to keep records of certain items sold or above a certain quantity.

For the instances of those vehicle accidents, were the vehicles purchased new? Because dealers are generally required to check that you have a valid license and insurance before you can take possession of the vehicle/complete the sale (yes, there can be some limited circumstances outside of having insurance and a license where you can legally purchase a vehicle).

The vehicle has to be registered and you have to have certain requirements to continue that registration.

All of this to reduce the chances that you are a dangerous driver.

If you want to build your own road going vehicle to avoid all that kind of stuff, well you need to have it inspected to be registered and the DMV is likely only going to allow a licensed drive to register the vehicle (okay, I don't actually know 100% for sure that is the case on the later, but they will make you do a safety inspection and register it with the state before you may drive it on public roads).

Guns have the restrictions of...in some instances you need a background check to buy one. Handguns you need a limited training class and slightly more in depth background check.

I am not arguing for more gun restrictions. However, bringing up things like driving, it is heavily restricted with a large number of requirements, hoops and expenses to jump through to do it LEGALLY. Along with a number of requirements to limit who can attempt to do it illegally by restricting the ability to acquire a vehicle or operate the acquired vehicle.

Yes, lots and lots of people still get around those hoops. Often times with bad consequences. Sometimes they tweak the hoops to try to make it more difficult.

Ahh, but because there are a large number of people who are going to drive an unsafe vehicle, without a license or insurance and end up causing an accident even with all of the restrictions in place to try to stop that. Well that proves the system doesn't improve road safety at all and doesn't reduce how many people operate unsafe vehicles, or drive unlicensed, or without insurance. So we need to remove those restrictions, because it hinders those who do abide by all of the restrictions and would be safe anyway without needing to follow them. Because they'd voluntarily hold insurance, and ensure they are competent drivers before driving, etc.

It is really easy to spin the argument that way.

I hope it isn't the case, but I think it is only a matter of time before there is state or national law restricting 80% and/or home built firearms. The genie is out of the bottle and it will not STOP it, but my biggest fear is heavily repressive laws or outright bans that effectively end the ability for people who care about them, to own or build them. The impact on criminals is likely to be relatively minor, as the more creative ones are just going to innovate around it. Yeah, your typical inner city youth bent on a liquor store stickup or turf battle isn't getting an 80% and finishing it.

But a guy selling them a gun might be, because is WAY less traceable to them. Those guys are smart enough that if they can't easily get 80%, they'll just get a 3D printer or two. Deal in stolen firearms? Or make them and sell them? What has a higher risk of getting caught?

More and more guys seem to be realizing that just making guns from 80s has a lower risk than dealing in stolen firearms and a whole lot less risk of buying them legitimately, but then re-selling them to the criminal element.

 

[lazarus]

unless you have a code section, i don't think so. no way just marking up a piece of plastic takes it past 80%. plus, effectively the jig it ships in denotes where the holes etc go.

I think it is conflating that the manufacturer of the 80% can't have the product marked with drill and mill spots generally. ATF seems to be real on the fence with allowing jigs to be included with the product itself.

It would be like me assisting you in building a firearm. The ATF is going to look at that poorly if I am touching things, setting machines up, etc. Suddenly it isn't YOU who made the firearm, it is US.

You could go ahead and markup your 80 and that shouldn't run afoul of any laws at all. So long as you didn't then try to sell the 80 to someone else. You have to actually machine it further before it becomes too much of a firearm.

That said, if it cannot be assembled in to a functional firearm, good luck with a jury convicting you. IMHO, the law is not violated until the piece can be assembled in to a functional firearm. The ATF is looking at it from the perspective of how much work is required to turn X thing in to a working gun. If the work is nominal, then the person who made the thing they sold to you, assisted in the manufacturer of the final firearm. That is illegal unless they conducted a background check on you, logged it in their bound book, and also have a manufacturers license and possibly other things I am not thinking of there.

THAT is the reason why an 80 has to be what it is, without one bit more complete. Until it is functional, it is not a firearm. However, it can be completed enough for the manufacturer of the 80 to be considered the manufacturer of the final firearm. Now laws get broken.

So I could go mill out the pocket on an AR 80% without drilling pin holes and it is NOT a functional firearm. I think the government would have a hard time convicting you of being in possession of a firearm. But if you go to sell that partially complete firearm, you probably would be in legal jeopardy depending on the ifs and whys and hows because the ATF is going to treat YOU as the manufacturer and they probably can swing a jury in to treating you as a the manufacturer also, even if someone has to take another step or two to make it functional.

I can make a firearm for myself and decide to later sell it. All legal. So long as I am following whatever laws are necessary for that transfer. A partially machined one is going to be tricky. It isn't a firearm yet, so it can't be logged in a bound book if a background check must be conducted for the transfer. You haven't actually completed making the firearm, but someone else is.

I would not touch transferring a partially completed 80 with a 12 foot pole. Don't need to find out the ATF/DA can come up with some nice legal theory that a judge and jury end up buying. Having a partially complete 80 isn't being in possession of a firearm. Though if I was prohibited, you know what, playing stupid games and winning stupid prizes and all that.

 

[teratos]

In case of theft? I'm still new-ish to civilian firearms ownership so I ask dumb questions sometimes.

If it gets stolen, the firearm theft and serial get reported to the police. I want my gun back. I don't skimp on parts. I have a lot of money invested.

There is no other reason to share your serial numbers.

 

[Bullfrog]

The promoter has already stated to one of our members that he was not threatened. I take people at their word. Call the promoter yourself and confirm it:

I take our member at his word, I believe that's what he was told by the promoter or their spokesperson. I don't necessarily believe someone who did feel threatened or intimidated into doing something would reveal that, whether its an AG, congresscritter, or the mob; not that there is a huge difference.

 

[Magnumite]

If it gets stolen, you'll likely file a police report and give them the serial number then. Otherwise you're registering yourself which is bad.

I must be naive as blazes. If you bought firearms through an ffl, if you are still buying them through ffl (now all purchases are to be done that way in Maryland and feds got it through the House Pelosiland)), you are “on the books”. You are labeled a gun owner and if things get that bad they will tear your premises apart looking for anything they can find.

We all want unpapered ‘stuff’ because big brother is becoming so contemptible. But face it, if things get that bad, we’ll be picking those ‘things’ up.

 

[babalou]

owning guns versus driving. Right versus privilege

 

[Magnumite]

^^. Bimbo

 

[Decoy]

FOAC Pennsylvania Pro Gun Group Really Anti Gun? JSD Supply Responds!

 

[Bertfish]

unless you have a code section, i don't think so. no way just marking up a piece of plastic takes it past 80%. plus, effectively the jig it ships in denotes where the holes etc go.

They came after the Form 1 suppressor/solvent trap folks who were putting an X in the center of the baffles to mark where to drill. I forget the name of that company

 

[gtodave]

If it gets stolen, the firearm theft and serial get reported to the police. I want my gun back. I don't skimp on parts. I have a lot of money invested.

There is no other reason to share your serial numbers.

Please....we all know what your serial numbers are.

58008-1, 58008-2, etc

 

[teratos]

Please....we all know what your serial numbers are.

58008-1, 58008-2, etc

Well, your mom was already using the one I wanted....