"Disapproved" for Hand Gun Purchase... Questions...

[Yoboney]

While looking this up for you, I determined that I've been making a mistake.

It appears that the crime I was charged with is a 30 day maximum sentence in a county jail, and up to a $500.00 fine.

"2C:33-2a(2) Improper behavior, a petty disorderly persons offense"

Littering is the same statue violation...

Honestly, I'm looking at the court paperwork, and there is NO description on the charge. I was able to find this:

http://essexcountynjcriminalattorneys.wordpress.com/about/disorderly-conduct-n-j-s-a-2c33-2/

I'm really finding it odd that MD could equate an offense carrying a max of 30 days in the can to a 3 year misdemeanor.

(I know... I know... but it's really hard to equate one state's misdemeanor to what is effectively a felony in all by name in MD.)

I would have to say that having the knife in the car with no one around would be a "hazardous" condition. I dunno.

It does not sound like a big dealbut I would get on top of it asap.If you look at Maryland's handgun unit they love to persecute anyone they can.Notice I didn't say prosecute. Just make sure everything is sorted out and cover your butt from future problems. If they ever send anyone to talk toyou don't talk without your lawyer.

 

[GBMaryland]

Update:

So the Sgt. DID call the investigator, and also faxed him the additional documentation.

According to the investigator, the original events on his end is that he sat down with a prosecutor and looked over my record. They determined that:

1) They were not going to prosecute me (originally when I was in a "disapproved" state) because I hadn't done anything criminal in the last 20 years

2) They have about 20 systems that they go through one at a time to check your background. One of those systems, seemed to indicate that I was conviected in NJ, thus this causes their response.

Today, he indicated that the Sgt. has cleared me, and that they were closing the file.

Interestingly, I asked if they were going to send me a letter indicating that I've been cleared... and he said NO. He was very professional, but it was clear that they avoid sending followup correspondance, and no specific reason was given.

The next thing to do is check with the Sgt, and see if he's going to send me a letter indicating that I'm cleared... or that the appeal was successful. (I don't consider the fact that they allowed me to purchase the firearm technically good enough.)

GB

 

[MikeTF]

Update:

So the Sgt. DID call the investigator, and also faxed him the additional documentation.

According to the investigator, the original events on his end is that he sat down with a prosecutor and looked over my record. They determined that:

1) They were not going to prosecute me (originally when I was in a "disapproved" state) because I hadn't done anything criminal in the last 20 years

2) They have about 20 systems that they go through one at a time to check your background. One of those systems, seemed to indicate that I was conviected in NJ, thus this causes their response.

Today, he indicated that the Sgt. has cleared me, and that they were closing the file.

Interestingly, I asked if they were going to send me a letter indicating that I've been cleared... and he said NO. He was very professional, but it was clear that they avoid sending followup correspondance, and no specific reason was given.

The next thing to do is check with the Sgt, and see if he's going to send me a letter indicating that I'm cleared... or that the appeal was successful. (I don't consider the fact that they allowed me to purchase the firearm technically good enough.)

GB

Consider filling out the affidavit for the MD Designated Collector's status. They will send you a letter when your status is approved.

 

[vette97]

I'm glad to hear about this final outcome but what you had to go through during this had to be hell. I hope your future purchases go through without a hitch!

 

[Yoboney]

Update:

So the Sgt. DID call the investigator, and also faxed him the additional documentation.

According to the investigator, the original events on his end is that he sat down with a prosecutor and looked over my record. They determined that:

1) They were not going to prosecute me (originally when I was in a "disapproved" state) because I hadn't done anything criminal in the last 20 years

2) They have about 20 systems that they go through one at a time to check your background. One of those systems, seemed to indicate that I was conviected in NJ, thus this causes their response.

Today, he indicated that the Sgt. has cleared me, and that they were closing the file.

Interestingly, I asked if they were going to send me a letter indicating that I've been cleared... and he said NO. He was very professional, but it was clear that they avoid sending followup correspondance, and no specific reason was given.

The next thing to do is check with the Sgt, and see if he's going to send me a letter indicating that I'm cleared... or that the appeal was successful. (I don't consider the fact that they allowed me to purchase the firearm technically good enough.)

GB

That is some good news but I would still make sure you repair the problem in Jersey. Liberal AG's like Gansler will always be a thorn in gun owner's sides.So everyone has to cover their butts.Stay safe and check your files to make sure no other demons are lurking.

 

[GBMaryland]

That is some good news but I would still make sure you repair the problem in Jersey. Liberal AG's like Gansler will always be a thorn in gun owner's sides.So everyone has to cover their butts.Stay safe and check your files to make sure no other demons are lurking.

Well,

Here is the interesting part...

I just had a senior LEO run a full blow nation wide background check on me, county to county, and through the FBI. (It took 2 hours...)

NOTHING shows up on my record.

Soooo, now it's a matter of how Maryland got this information. If my record had not be expunged at all, it would have shown up in some manner.

I've called the MDSP back and asked which of their 20 deparate systems are showing me as convicted of a crime that I wasn't.

The real question is: will they tell me?

It doesn't make any sense to hire an attorney in NJ if we're not going to be able to give the court direction to clean up it's gaff...

 

[GBMaryland]

I'm glad to hear about this final outcome but what you had to go through during this had to be hell. I hope your future purchases go through without a hitch!

MDSP says I will not have any future issues... However, I am annoyed (at the moment) that they will not provide me a record in writing (other than the defacto approval of the "restricted" firearm) clearing my name.

Accusing someone of a felony (perjury) and the saying over the phone that you made a mistake and it's cleared up is NOT the same as providing it in writing.

The question is if the Sgt. will be sending a letter indicating that the appeal was successful...

 

[Splitter]

I wonder if MD and NJ, both being anti gun, have an agreement to share certain databases that may show any "conviction" even if it was expunged?

Definitely keep us posted and keep the heat on them. It might not just be an inconvenience for you, it might be something larger that needs to hit the public radar.

As an aside.....why would Maryland keep which databases they use as a secret?

Splitter

 

[novus collectus]

Well,

Here is the interesting part...

I just had a senior LEO run a full blow nation wide background check on me, county to county, and through the FBI. (It took 2 hours...)

NOTHING shows up on my record.

Soooo, now it's a matter of how Maryland got this information. If my record had not be expunged at all, it would have shown up in some manner.

I've called the MDSP back and asked which of their 20 deparate systems are showing me as convicted of a crime that I wasn't.

The real question is: will they tell me?

It doesn't make any sense to hire an attorney in NJ if we're not going to be able to give the court direction to clean up it's gaff...

Ever apply to become a ciop in any state? They keep a database of turned down applicants which they share with each other. (not all agencies, but many from what I hear).

 

[GBMaryland]

Ever apply to become a ciop in any state? They keep a database of turned down applicants which they share with each other. (not all agencies, but many from what I hear).

What's a CIOP? I can tell you that I've never applied for anything thing and been turned down. (Lucky I guess...)

Splitter:

In answer to your question, I suspect there may be times when it would be useful to not let the general criminal population know who talking to who. How to weigh that is a whole different ball of wax...

 

[Minuteman]

When I applied for a MD CCW as private citizen, I believe they did a very thorough check. Squeaky clean... but in the end, I withdrew my application. Long story.

 

[organized_mayhem]

I had to send Florida a copy of a not guilty verdict for an assault charge from several years ago before they would issue my non res. permit in 2008. I found it very convenient for Maryland that the charge showed up on a background check but the outcome did not.

 

[Bob A]

"I've called the MDSP back and asked which of their 20 deparate systems are showing me as convicted of a crime that I wasn't.

The real question is: will they tell me?"

I think a FOIA request would pry the info out of them.

 

[GBMaryland]

How would I go about getting a FOIA request against them?

 

[Fodder4Thought]

How would I go about getting a FOIA request against them?

This might help:

http://www.rcfp.org/foialetter/index.php

 

[novus collectus]

What's a CIOP? I can tell you that I've never applied for anything thing and been turned down. (Lucky I guess...)

Splitter:

In answer to your question, I suspect there may be times when it would be useful to not let the general criminal population know who talking to who. How to weigh that is a whole different ball of wax...

I was in a hurry, I saw the typo but let it go. I meant cop.

 

[GBMaryland]

Ok everyone, thanks to a retired NJ cop, all the pieces are now falling in place...

1) When I got pulled over I was charged with a more serious crime that was reduced by the county prosecutor.

2) The original charge included having my figer prints taken, and processing that is not typically done with a "petty disorderly persons offense" [e.g. minor misdemeanor].

3) As such, my information was sent to the FBI and the State Police, and then was recorded in whatever information system New Jersey uses for tracking these things.

4) The charges were reduced, I went to court, and I got off.

5) In New Jersey, they DO NOT SPECIFICALLY update the outcome or the record in certain systems when you are involved in a PDO or "petty disorderly persons offense." They do however, put the original charges into the system, and they track the cause under the orignial summons. It appears that if the charges are changed from a serious criminal offense to a PDO, the system doesn't nessicarily get updated in certain circumstances; New Jersey expects you to petiton the court to fix their screwup, even when the officer is deemed to have made a mistake or falsely arrested you!

6) While most of the systems seem have never recieved the information that I was arrested, it appears that Maryland and New Jersey talk directly to each other. So Maryland seems to have access to files in New Jersey that would not typically be used by other states when performing a background check.

7) Questions #2 and #3 on the application for the "regulated" firearms state:

"#2 Have you ever been convicted of a crime of violence"

"#3 Have you ever been convicted of any violation classified as a felony in this State;"

The description for the ORIGINAL charge, I think, indicated weapons possesion. (Knife in a car...) So, even the lowed ammended charge has the word "violent" in the statute.

So when New Jersey hadn't updated their eletronic records, Maryland determined that I was guilty of a crime of violence... even if it wasn't a felony.

Of course, part of the issue with this is that I didn't have the statue, that I wasn't found guilt of violating, committed to memory. Nor would I have answered the question any differently... but I can see how someone could be, effectively, entrapped into committing perjury. Ignorance of the law may not be an excuse, but in certain circumstances its fairly compeling.

There is an issue here and I suspect a number of people get stripped of their rights inadvertantly because of some minor nonsense from another State that turns out to a felony in Maryland, or violent crime...

8) I got a few letters in the mail, and, obviously, one of them accused me of a felony [perjury].

9) I called the Sgt., provided copies of the court documents that I do have, and the whole thing was resolved in 24 hours. (Which I can't complain about...)

So, it really does appear that, just like Splitter, I'm in a position where I have to go back to the other State and peition the court to clear my record.

Of course, I'm annoyed that this isn't automatically done in New Jersey. I've considered it for awhile, and I believe that this is purely to screw with people.

If you're found innocent, no matter how it happens, the public (or semi-public in this case) record needs to be cleared.

What bothers is that the retired officer from NJ indicated that's not how it works; that NJ puts you in a position of having to pay and attorney to clear your record. (You can try to do it yourself, but it's much more difficult, and completely at the whim of the court...)

I guess the only good news here is that MD in no longer an issue, and the Judge from New Jersey is no longer on the bench.

 

[kalister1]

Just a guess, but I am thinking the MSP will not send you a letter saying you are cleared of all issues for the same reason they stamp "Not Disapproved". They are practicing CYA. They do not want you to able to say "Look the MSP say I'm OK" The idea that the MSP approved you for something could be used against them. But at the same time they will send you a letter saying you have been granted "Collector Status". Which seems to say the same thing, You're OK by us?
Confusing as all get out to me.

 

[GBMaryland]

Heh.

It's been a confusing experience.

The confusing aspect of it ends up being more the NJ side, than on the MD.

I really do appreciate everyone's input and putting up "with me reasoning things out through typing..." -grin-

MD actually cleared things up fairly quickly. Seriously, 24 hours after receiving notice that I was screwed, the whole issue was resovled.

Sticking to purely the MD related events... the issues I see as a problem are:

1) That it's very easy to mistakingly fill out the MD paperwork and set yourself up for a perjury charge. [e.g. if the word violent appears in other State's charge, or if you don't know a charge in other State equates to a felony in Maryland.]

2) That if / when you are cleared, MD will NOT send you anything indicating that they've made a mistake.

The only two reason that I'm not thinking of sueing Maryland:

1) The one Sgt. was HIGHLY professional, and doesn't, IMO, deserve it.

2) I'm going to have to spend thousands of dollars to have an attorney clear up the NJ side of this issue. Which, to be fair, is root cause of the problem.

I'm not saying the MD may not have it's issues...

All because 20 years ago a cop pulled me over in a case of mistaken identity and illegally searched my car. -doh-

 

[Yoboney]

Ok everyone, thanks to a retired NJ cop, all the pieces are now falling in place...

1) When I got pulled over I was charged with a more serious crime that was reduced by the county prosecutor.

2) The original charge included having my figer prints taken, and processing that is not typically done with a "petty disorderly persons offense" [e.g. minor misdemeanor].

3) As such, my information was sent to the FBI and the State Police, and then was recorded in whatever information system New Jersey uses for tracking these things.

4) The charges were reduced, I went to court, and I got off.

5) In New Jersey, they DO NOT SPECIFICALLY update the outcome or the record in certain systems when you are involved in a PDO or "petty disorderly persons offense." They do however, put the original charges into the system, and they track the cause under the orignial summons. It appears that if the charges are changed from a serious criminal offense to a PDO, the system doesn't nessicarily get updated in certain circumstances; New Jersey expects you to petiton the court to fix their screwup, even when the officer is deemed to have made a mistake or falsely arrested you!

6) While most of the systems seem have never recieved the information that I was arrested, it appears that Maryland and New Jersey talk directly to each other. So Maryland seems to have access to files in New Jersey that would not typically be used by other states when performing a background check.

7) Questions #2 and #3 on the application for the "regulated" firearms state:

"#2 Have you ever been convicted of a crime of violence"

"#3 Have you ever been convicted of any violation classified as a felony in this State;"

The description for the ORIGINAL charge, I think, indicated weapons possesion. (Knife in a car...) So, even the lowed ammended charge has the word "violent" in the statute.

So when New Jersey hadn't updated their eletronic records, Maryland determined that I was guilty of a crime of violence... even if it wasn't a felony.

Of course, part of the issue with this is that I didn't have the statue, that I wasn't found guilt of violating, committed to memory. Nor would I have answered the question any differently... but I can see how someone could be, effectively, entrapped into committing perjury. Ignorance of the law may not be an excuse, but in certain circumstances its fairly compeling.

There is an issue here and I suspect a number of people get stripped of their rights inadvertantly because of some minor nonsense from another State that turns out to a felony in Maryland, or violent crime...

8) I got a few letters in the mail, and, obviously, one of them accused me of a felony [perjury].

9) I called the Sgt., provided copies of the court documents that I do have, and the whole thing was resolved in 24 hours. (Which I can't complain about...)

So, it really does appear that, just like Splitter, I'm in a position where I have to go back to the other State and peition the court to clear my record.

Of course, I'm annoyed that this isn't automatically done in New Jersey. I've considered it for awhile, and I believe that this is purely to screw with people.

If you're found innocent, no matter how it happens, the public (or semi-public in this case) record needs to be cleared.

What bothers is that the retired officer from NJ indicated that's not how it works; that NJ puts you in a position of having to pay and attorney to clear your record. (You can try to do it yourself, but it's much more difficult, and completely at the whim of the court...)

I guess the only good news here is that MD in no longer an issue, and the Judge from New Jersey is no longer on the bench.

I figured you had been charged with a more serious offense and than it was lessened and settled. This happens to many people and it is something that the state does indeed normally charge people with after the fact.Technically perjury is "court" testimony but I have chatted with many that don't understand that making a "deal" does not lessen the original charge on the computer. I am glad you are resolving this issue and I hope anyone else who reads the thread realizes that they must know each charge they had and expunge it from their records to cover their gun buying butts.