difference between NRA and "Other" Training

[jpo183]

I have taken NRA RSO and I have taken the BIT portion ( I have to finish the pistol instructor part later).

Given MD has the wear and carry class renewal training now what are the differences say with a NRA hands on class vs others?

Lets say a general "shooting" course put on by "other" companies and the NRA Defensive Pistol or similiar ( I know it says still in devolpment)?

Meaning classes that are not "basic" level and more hands on "learn to shoot/ wear and carry better"

It seems like a lot of the NRA courses are more "classroom" with the exception of first steps and the basic classes.

Hopefully that makes sense. If not Ill reword later. I know the NRA courses are not certified for the Wear and Carry.

 

[mcbruzdzinski]

Since you have already taken the BIT, you should see that the NRA classes are standardized and based upon a strategy of student participation. All the classes follow a similar approach of theory before practice. There are also NRA classes designed for LEO that are based on the same techniques.

There are elements from basic pistol, PPITH, POTH and HFS that can be used to develop a wear and carry course. Many of us have done so.

The NRA has spent a lot of time is developing the courses. For sure the PPITH/PPOTH classes, if done correctly, a student will spend about 60-80 of the time on the range.

 

[Tom Perroni]

MY $0.02

Are you in the process of becoming an Instructor?

We have an open range day on the 25th of January come on out and work with me and some of my Instructors.

We just purchased a beautiful $1.7 million dollar facility I would love to show it off and help you at the same time.


Tom

 

[sig63]

Tom, I'm interested in your event on the 25th. Can you give some more details?

 

[sig63]

Jonathan, I find that the NRA Basic Pistol training provides a good format for reaching folks who have very little or no experience with firearms. That's why I got certified...so that I could help people make better, more informed decisions about owning guns and buying a first gun. And hopefully they develop some awareness to help dispel the anti-gun hyperbole.

There are plenty of others providing "higher speed" training but the NRA does a great job of helping people get to that first level before they get into more advanced disciplines...such as CCW.

 

[jpo183]

Are you in the process of becoming an Instructor?

We have an open range day on the 25th of January come on out and work with me and some of my Instructors.

We just purchased a beautiful $1.7 million dollar facility I would love to show it off and help you at the same time.


Tom

I took the BIT portion of the NRA Instructor training and I have to take the core portion, which will be pistol. I took the BIT with Ben Kelkey and he allowed me to do the BTI portion first and then take the pistol instructor on the next go round. I just couldn't commit to two full days with my current calendar so this worked out well. BIT was very very intesting. I enjoyed learning a bit more about the course structure.

Unfortunately I have to go to DC for a wedding that day or Id be all over it.

Jonathan, I find that the NRA Basic Pistol training provides a good format for reaching folks who have very little or no experience with firearms. That's why I got certified...so that I could help people make better, more informed decisions about owning guns and buying a first gun. And hopefully they develop some awareness to help dispel the anti-gun hyperbole.

There are plenty of others providing "higher speed" training but the NRA does a great job of helping people get to that first level before they get into more advanced disciplines...such as CCW.

I agree 100% and that is why I am getting my pistol instructor, so I can better help the newer shooter. I am by no means an "expert" or even an "advanced" shooter. I can shoot safe and relatively well.

I am more asking this question toward a person that has been shooting for awhile and wants to learn to become a better shooter as well as more "practical" wear and carry training. Since I have my CCW I want to get some better instruction strong hand / weak hand shooting, drawing and shooting, etc. I rather get an instructor to go through my bad habits then simply "train" by myself.

 

[Blaster229]

Someone with no experience can become an NRA instructor and someone with high quality experience can become one.
So, take that for what it is.

 

[mcbruzdzinski]

Someone with no experience can become an NRA instructor and someone with high quality experience can become one.
So, take that for what it is.

Hopefully the NRA TC who is giving the course will be able to make sure anyone he/she approves is capable of being a good instructor. There is a reason that there is a pre-qualification phase of the NRA instructor classes.

I know I have rejected a few applicants based upon the pre-qualification phase and have actually failed to approve some who have made it through the actual instructor class. The NRA Training Department relies on the good judgement of the Traning Counselors to make sure the candidates being submitted for instructor status are qualified.

While having years of shooting experience is always a good foundation to build on, it does not always make for a good instructor. By the same token, those who have very little experience are likely to fail as instructors as they lack the experience to demonstrate proper (and safe) gun handling skills. Part of the instructor course is for the NRA TC to make sure the instructor candidate can be effective as a trainer, imoacting the knowledge, skills, and developing the proper attitude in the students he/she will eventually teach.

We have all had teachers/instructors/coaches who while competent, could not teach a skill. Some were just there for the money or the fact they had summer off (in the case of school teachers). The NRA strives to find instructors who have a passion to get ther students involved and to become active shooters within the shooting community. After all, the NRA was started to make sure the USA always had a place to learn how to shoot.

I know other TCs in MD and other states who feel very passionately about making sure our instructor candidates are prepared to be solid instructors. If yours is just interested in filling seats and collecting his/her course fees, they are not being faithful to the spirit and mandates of the NRA training criteria.

 

[3rdRcn]

Someone with no experience can become an NRA instructor and someone with high quality experience can become one.
So, take that for what it is.

I would absolutely agree with that statement and I have personally seen more instructors with NRA creds that could neither shoot nor instruct than you can shake a stick at. I have seen and know a few that I have had no problems with taking their class as well but they are in the vast minority compared to the other type.

 

[mcbruzdzinski]

I would absolutely agree with that statement and I have personally seen more instructors with NRA creds that could neither shoot nor instruct than you can shake a stick at. I have seen and know a few that I have had no problems with taking their class as well but they are in the vast minority compared to the other type.

That is a sad commentary.

Have you considered reporting those instructors that you feel are lacking in ability to be be good instructors? I would strongly suggest that if you see any NRA instructor who is not competent to ask him/her who his TC is(was) and contact them.

My TC often told us as a class that 'we were his' and that any issue with out performance should come back to him for correction first before going up the chain to the NRA Training Department. I do the same for my instructor and RSO classes.

Just like everyone on a range is an RSO, as instructors it is oour responsibility to police each other to some degree.

Just my $0.02!

 

[miles71]

I became a NRA instructor recently. I did it because I have been shooting for many years and helping many people learn to shoot, but wanted some credentials to do so. The NRA was the only game in town for a non LEO like myself. Since then I have done other NRA courses Nd have even done the qualification requirements for the new MSPQHI certification.

I do not think for mine second I can teach advanced pistol techniques, however I know I can teach and feel comfortable introducing a classroom of students to shooting safely.

I would like to see some sort of mentoring program in which instructors like myself could set in on other instructors courses, even if non NRA classes. That is how it's done in education, new teachers watch other older teachers to see what they can pick up on, both good and bad.

I would also like to see another governing body besides the NRA organize training for non LEO or military people. The NRA does a nice job with basic courses, but any ccw holder or even gun owner may want more advanced training. Not like I can call up the local MSP barracks and say " hey, you guys don't mind if I come out the the range with ya and train do ya?"

Just some thoughts. TD

 

[mcbruzdzinski]

I have invited those who have been in my instructor classes to come back and sit or to help in teaching my NRA classes they are qualified in.

I have even played host to new instructors who have been taught by other TCs. I even attend sessions of other TC and assist. As an instructor I tell my students never to stop learning and I try to do the same. I beleive most TCs and intructors are willing to allow for new instructors to observe or even help out. My only caveat is that if a new instructor is going to teach, they must carry insurance.

For sure a bulk of the NRA classes are just to get people introduced to shooting. Some the more recent classes (PPITH, PPOTH, Advanced Pistol) are geared toward more advanced shooting skills.

I still fee that the NRA classes form a good foundation for first time shooters. Once past the initial level, there are many other avenues of instruction offered by other instructors (both at a local and national level). For instance Tom Perroni and Jim Proctor (both IPs) here offer great follow-up courses on tactical and defensive shooting techniques. Many others offer excellent CCW/CFP clases as well. On a national level, you can find travelling courses by Massad Ayoob and Jerry Miculek or head out to Thunder Ranch.

As for asking the MSP to tag-along, you may want to consider making friends with some of the LEOS. You would be surprised at how much you can learn from shooting with them at a range. The same can also be said for some of the ex-military/active military/reservists. They are good resources and many are willing to share some of their techniques. It never hurts to ask.

 

[miles71]

I have invited those who have been in my instructor classes to come back and sit or to help in teaching my NRA classes they are qualified in.

I have even played host to new instructors who have been taught by other TCs. I even attend sessions of other TC and assist. As an instructor I tell my students never to stop learning and I try to do the same. I beleive most TCs and intructors are willing to allow for new instructors to observe or even help out. My only caveat is that if a new instructor is going to teach, they must carry insurance.

For sure a bulk of the NRA classes are just to get people introduced to shooting. Some the more recent classes (PPITH, PPOTH, Advanced Pistol) are geared toward more advanced shooting skills.

I still fee that the NRA classes form a good foundation for first time shooters. Once past the initial level, there are many other avenues of instruction offered by other instructors (both at a local and national level). For instance Tom Perroni and Jim Proctor (both IPs) here offer great follow-up courses on tactical and defensive shooting techniques. Many others offer excellent CCW/CFP clases as well. On a national level, you can find travelling courses by Massad Ayoob and Jerry Miculek or head out to Thunder Ranch.

As for asking the MSP to tag-along, you may want to consider making friends with some of the LEOS. You would be surprised at how much you can learn from shooting with them at a range. The same can also be said for some of the ex-military/active military/reservists. They are good resources and many are willing to share some of their techniques. It never hurts to ask.

Thanks for this reply. I believe you have extended the offer to me to sit in on a class, and I appreciate yours and the others offers to do so. If only schedules worked out better. One of the best things about the NRA Instructor course i went through was the participants and all of the various backgrounds. I learned more from our discussions than anything else.

I hope i didn't sound upset in my comments concerning MSP range time, it was meant to be a joke. I can attest to making friends with the local LEO agency. I have been out with the local police a few times and have been able to go through their qualifications with them. Also have a good friend who is a MSP Firearms Instructor who i shoot with on occasion. I have learned a great deal from both experiences.

I hope to be able to observe some classes this year, consider it a new years resolution :-)

TD

 

[mcbruzdzinski]

No problem. I think we all learn something from these posts.

There are times when I learn from my guest instructors more than I think they get from being there. Any time you thing you need to stop learning it is time to quit.

Looking forward to meeting more of my fellow instructors over 2014.

 

[3rdRcn]

That is a sad commentary.

Have you considered reporting those instructors that you feel are lacking in ability to be be good instructors? I would strongly suggest that if you see any NRA instructor who is not competent to ask him/her who his TC is(was) and contact them.

My TC often told us as a class that 'we were his' and that any issue with out performance should come back to him for correction first before going up the chain to the NRA Training Department. I do the same for my instructor and RSO classes.

Just like everyone on a range is an RSO, as instructors it is oour responsibility to police each other to some degree.

Just my $0.02!

Your are an exception to most TC's Mike and I applaud your attitude but unfortunately most of the TC's I have seen do not share that same philosophy. I hope to get down to become a TC later this year if the planets align for me and I will carry the same attitude you do. I will not give instructor creds to those that should not have them as it does nothing but make those of us who work hard at making sure we are doing the best we can to be good ambassadors and instructors for the shooting sports and as representatives of the NRA.

 

[3rdRcn]

I became a NRA instructor recently. I did it because I have been shooting for many years and helping many people learn to shoot, but wanted some credentials to do so. The NRA was the only game in town for a non LEO like myself. Since then I have done other NRA courses Nd have even done the qualification requirements for the new MSPQHI certification.

I do not think for mine second I can teach advanced pistol techniques, however I know I can teach and feel comfortable introducing a classroom of students to shooting safely.

I would like to see some sort of mentoring program in which instructors like myself could set in on other instructors courses, even if non NRA classes. That is how it's done in education, new teachers watch other older teachers to see what they can pick up on, both good and bad.

I would also like to see another governing body besides the NRA organize training for non LEO or military people. The NRA does a nice job with basic courses, but any ccw holder or even gun owner may want more advanced training. Not like I can call up the local MSP barracks and say " hey, you guys don't mind if I come out the the range with ya and train do ya?"

Just some thoughts. TD

You were invited to my last class but unfortunately you couldn't make it. You should come take one of the PPOTH courses and you will learn more advanced techniques. You might also check out center mass combat tactics as they also offer more advanced defensive pistol classes. Tom Perroni is also an option for you if you don't mind a little drive. The classes are out there for you all you need to do is MAKE the time to take them.

I would say that I take more or about the same number of classes per year as I teach, I do the beginner to the advanced classes. I especially like the beginner or level 1 classes because I can always walk away with another technique or view point than I had when I came. I approach every class with the mindset that if I can walk away from the class and have learned just 1 new thing then it was a win for me, I haven't been disappointed yet.

 

[ProShooter]

I would like to see some sort of mentoring program in which instructors like myself could set in on other instructors courses, even if non NRA classes. That is how it's done in education, new teachers watch other older teachers to see what they can pick up on, both good and bad.

That is an excellent concept, but not a realistic one unfortunately in the business world.

As a teacher, your goal and the goal of your fellow teachers is to teach students. You are paid a salary to do the job.

As a firearms instructor and business owner, my goal is also to teach students, but also to make money. In the past 6+ years, I have taken on a very few instructors to help them learn how to teach firearms. The goal was for them to stay on board and work for us to help us make money. All but one have taken what they've learned, left us, and started doing their own thing using what they learned from us. In some cases, they've copied stuff/materials/course descriptions, etc. word for word. In essence, I've trained my competition.....not what I want to accomplish. That's why I don't want to offer instructor courses. I don't want to teach others to do what we do, as well as we do it.

I didn't invent the wheel, but I figured out how to make it roll really well in what we teach. In the grand scheme of running a business, I want my competitor's wheel to fail, and for people to come to me to buy my wheel. If I teach my competitor how to make his wheel as good as mine, then we're selling the same wheel and my business suffers. I know that may sound cold or callous on some levels, but that's the nature of running a business. You want people to know that you sell the best cup of coffee in town. If everyone is selling the same cup of coffee, you don't last long at selling coffee.

 

[miles71]

You were invited to my last class but unfortunately you couldn't make it. You should come take one of the PPOTH courses and you will learn more advanced techniques. You might also check out center mass combat tactics as they also offer more advanced defensive pistol classes. Tom Perroni is also an option for you if you don't mind a little drive. The classes are out there for you all you need to do is MAKE the time to take them.

Wish I could have made it, and appreciate your invitation to put up with me. I hope to make the time this year for more classes/training md also hope to be able to come see you teach. Please let me know when the PPOTH classes are happening.

That is an excellent concept, but not a realistic one unfortunately in the business world.

I do have a habit of thinking more like a teacher than a business man. However your points are good ones. I run into this sometimes in music, you don't want to teach someone all the tricks or they take your gig. Honestly the biggest obstacle I have found in getting into more teaching/instruction is finding a place to do the training, I'm not affiliated with a range. Talk about frustrating.

Pro shooter, this is really all your fault, since I took your Utah class. Since then I have done more training and gotten more certificates for the wall. Just proves what good instructors can do to encourage all of us.

TD

 

[ProShooter]

I do have a habit of thinking more like a teacher than a business man.

In business, I've found that you have to wear many hats, and mostly all at the same time.

Honestly the biggest obstacle I have found in getting into more teaching/instruction is finding a place to do the training, I'm not affiliated with a range. Talk about frustrating.

You've got to put the word out, work deals, and keep your ear to the ground. Nothing good ever came easy.

Pro shooter, this is really all your fault, since I took your Utah class. Since then I have done more training and gotten more certificates for the wall. Just proves what good instructors can do to encourage all of us.

TD

I thank you for the compliment....very kind! The best instructor is one who remembers that he is a student himself first. Always learn, always train, never settle.

 

[mtnwisdom]

I became a NRA instructor recently. I did it because I have been shooting for many years and helping many people learn to shoot, but wanted some credentials to do so. The NRA was the only game in town for a non LEO like myself. Since then I have done other NRA courses Nd have even done the qualification requirements for the new MSPQHI certification. I do not think for mine second I can teach advanced pistol techniques, however I know I can teach and feel comfortable introducing a classroom of students to shooting safely. I would like to see some sort of mentoring program in which instructors like myself could set in on other instructors courses, even if non NRA classes. That is how it's done in education, new teachers watch other older teachers to see what they can pick up on, both good and bad. I would also like to see another governing body besides the NRA organize training for non LEO or military people. The NRA does a nice job with basic courses, but any ccw holder or even gun owner may want more advanced training. Not like I can call up the local MSP barracks and say " hey, you guys don't mind if I come out the the range with ya and train do ya?" Just some thoughts. TD

There are other venues to home both your shooting skills and your instructional techniques... If you truly want to understand vs know.. I highly recommend a week at Gunsite followed by a week at Academi (formerly Blackwater), and don't forget 3 days at Glock or Sig Sauer, and Lethal Force Institute and Masaad Ayoob Group. All of these are for non LEO or military. And they all START where the NRA certified Pistol Instructor ends.

This would give you a substantial 'undergraduate' degree as a formal pistol instructor. Add in IDPA competition and I believe you would then be able to offer an educated instructional experience.

Really, it comes down to what level of instructional mastery you desire to achieve...

Teaching the knowledge and skills in the PPITH and PPOTH programs IS being a firearms instructor. It all has to do with doing it right vs just doing it.

There is a an entire dimension of difference between 'knowing' a subject and 'understanding' it... Become the difference. Learn the essence of the subject then learn to communicate it.

Just some thoughts...