Detailed NFA Trust Information

[Hawkeye]

Have a good week. Appreciated your replies. Thinking that I'm close to having a decent knowledge as to how to proceed, thanks to you and the others here.
Will probably get Trust notorized tomorrow.

No problem at all. Like I said before, I spent a ton of time learning here and other places, and I'm happy to offer what help I can.

I put off doing NFA stuff for years (maybe decades?) because I both didn't fully understand the process and because it was something I'd always be able to do "later."

Well, if I've learned anything over the past few years, waiting until "later" with gun stuff is not always a good idea.

 

[OnTarget]

I was told today by my gun shop FFL that the 2nd page of Form 4 (Lines 13 thru 20) doesn't have to be filled out if only purchasing a Silencer and doing it as a NFA Trust.

Anybody have their application approved, when not writing anything at all on page 2.

Note: I have the newer Form 4 (6-30-2017) whereby in the "Transferee Certification" section the Name & Title of Transferee, plus reason comes before the series of questions pertaining to unlawful acts.

 

[Sticky]

Never done a form 4, but the questions in regards to being legal, not violating any laws/restrictions would only apply to an individual, trusts don't commit crimes... lol

Therefore when applying as a trust, those questions do not apply.

 

[OnTarget]

I was told today by my gun shop FFL that the 2nd page of Form 4 (Lines 13 thru 20) doesn't have to be filled out if only purchasing a Silencer and doing it as a NFA Trust.

Anybody have their application approved, when not writing anything at all on page 2.

Note: I have the newer Form 4 (6-30-2017) whereby in the "Transferee Certification" section the Name & Title of Transferee, plus reason comes before the series of questions pertaining to unlawful acts.

I need somebody that has actually submitted Form 4 and either gotten approval (or not) regarding whether they filed out (Lines 13 thru 20) for a Silencer and doing it as a NFA Trust. Like I said, my FFL said I didn't have to fill out the back of the 1st page at all, but if you get on the internet, it seems to be a mixed bag as far as opinions. Some say that the page I'm referencing is only for things like machine guns, but not Silencers, because they are not listed in the question. Please advise and thanks!

 

[outrider58]

I need somebody that has actually submitted Form 4 and either gotten approval (or not) regarding whether they filed out (Lines 13 thru 20) for a Silencer and doing it as a NFA Trust. Like I said, my FFL said I didn't have to fill out the back of the 1st page at all, but if you get on the internet, it seems to be a mixed bag as far as opinions. Some say that the page I'm referencing is only for things like machine guns, but not Silencers, because they are not listed in the question. Please advise and thanks!

From what I read, the only thing required by the transferee on page 2 is your signature and date due to the fact that you are applying for this item through a trust, not as an individual. IANAL. Have you reached out to any of the IPs here who deal with this on a daily basis?

 

[OnTarget]

From what I read, the only thing required by the transferee on page 2 is your signature and date due to the fact that you are applying for this item through a trust, not as an individual. IANAL. Have you reached out to any of the IPs here who deal with this on a daily basis?

Good idea on IP's. If you research this on the web, you'd be surprised about the varying opinions, even by gun trust lawyers. Seems to me, the best way to know is to find people that have submitted and gotten results one way or the other, based on whether they filled out the page. IP's encouraged to chime in.

See link below for newer version of Form 4, especially page 2 from #14 to bottom of page.

https://www.atf.gov/firearms/docs/f...-registration-firearm-atf-form-53204/download

 

[Hawkeye]

I need somebody that has actually submitted Form 4 and either gotten approval (or not) regarding whether they filed out (Lines 13 thru 20) for a Silencer and doing it as a NFA Trust. Like I said, my FFL said I didn't have to fill out the back of the 1st page at all, but if you get on the internet, it seems to be a mixed bag as far as opinions. Some say that the page I'm referencing is only for things like machine guns, but not Silencers, because they are not listed in the question. Please advise and thanks!

I wish I could help you with that one. I do have a can that's in Form 4 jail at the moment, but the IP here that I bought it from did the paperwork for me and just told me where to sign. I checked everything over, but I don't remember what lines were and weren't filled out.

 

[OnTarget]

I wish I could help you with that one. I do have a can that's in Form 4 jail at the moment, but the IP here that I bought it from did the paperwork for me and just told me where to sign. I checked everything over, but I don't remember what lines were and weren't filled out.

You've been excellent with answers. I won't fault you for not knowing this one!

 

[fred333]

I was told today by my gun shop FFL that the 2nd page of Form 4 (Lines 13 thru 20) doesn't have to be filled out if only purchasing a Silencer and doing it as a NFA Trust.
Anybody have their application approved, when not writing anything at all on page 2.
Note: I have the newer Form 4 (6-30-2017) whereby in the "Transferee Certification" section the Name & Title of Transferee, plus reason comes before the series of questions pertaining to unlawful acts.

My last two silencer Form 4s (transfers via trust) have revision dates of Nov '04 and July '14, respectively. In both cases, they were submitted by the FFL and only the Transferee Information (i.e., sections 13 and 14 on the '04 Form) and Transferee's Certification sections were completed on the backside of the form (on the 2014 Form, both sections were combined into a single Transferee's Certification section). I hope that helps.

 

[OnTarget]

My last two silencer Form 4s (transfers via trust) have revision dates of Nov '04 and July '14, respectively. In both cases, they were submitted by the FFL and only the Transferee Information (i.e., sections 13 and 14 on the '04 Form) and Transferee's Certification sections were completed on the backside of the form (on the 2014 Form, both sections were combined into a single Transferee's Certification section). I hope that helps.

Fred333: If you will, look at the link I provided in message 226, see page 2. Are you saying you filled out starting at #14 and went all the way to the bottom, including signature at bottom? Thank you.

 

[fred333]

Fred333: If you will, look at the link I provided in message 226, see page 2. Are you saying you filled out starting at #14 and went all the way to the bottom, including signature at bottom? Thank you.

Here's a backside scan of the last approved Form 4 I received. Note the sections completed by the FFL (the date in section 17 was probably pre-printed on the FFL's form and shouldn't be needed for a trust filing). Because this is the old '04 form, you'll need to translate what you see here onto whichever revision you've got

 

[OnTarget]

fred333; Thanks for the scan of backside page. Appreciated!

For some reason the ATF has reordered the newer version page so that it shows this way (top to bottom):
1. Law Enforcement #13
2. Transferee Certification #14
3. Transferee Information questions 15a thru 15j #15
4. Certification signature at bottom of page

 

[OnTarget]

I know it seems that I belabor some things, but it's an attempt to get at the proper way of doing firearm procedures.

Okay, some argue that if the item is a silencer, then #15 does NOT need to be answered/signed (it's not listed along with machinegun, short-barreled rifle, short-barreled shotgun, or destructive device) , even say they contacted the ATF for answer. Particularly look for comment(s) by orpheus762. Here's the discussion. Interesting:

http://www.ar15.com/archive/topic.html?b=1&f=5&t=1612743

https://www.ar15.com/archive/topic.html?b=6&f=17&t=423696

http://www.texasguntalk.com/forums/...gnature-required-silencer-purchase-trust.html


Enjoy! It's anybody's call!

 

[fred333]

For some reason the ATF has reordered the newer version page so that it shows this way (top to bottom):
1. Law Enforcement #13
2. Transferee Certification #14
3. Transferee Information questions 15a thru 15j #15
4. Certification signature at bottom of page

"you'll need to translate what you see here onto whichever revision you've got"

 

[OnTarget]

For those of you filing Form 4 as an NFA Trustee, I contacted the ATF yesterday to ask a couple of questions and found out the following:

1. The backside of Form 4, page 1, does not have to be filled out if you are purchasing a Silencer, but does have to be signed/dated at the bottom the the page. I did not ask about other types of purchase items.
2. When submitting a copy of the Trust, single sided pages are the best way to go.
3. As to adding an item you are purchasing to Schedule A, do not add it until after you get the Tax Stamp from ATF and completed the process. This has been explained by others on this thread.

Hoping these comments help someone, since I've received a lot of help by others here on MDS. I am trusting that what the ATF agent told me is reliable information.

 

[outrider58]

For those of you filing Form 4 as an NFA Trustee, I contacted the ATF yesterday to ask a couple of questions and found out the following:

1. The backside of Form 4, page 1, does not have to be filled out if you are purchasing a Silencer, but does have to be signed/dated at the bottom the the page. I did not ask about other types of purchase items.
2. When submitting a copy of the Trust, single sided pages are the best way to go.
3. As to adding an item you are purchasing to Schedule A, do not add it until after you get the Tax Stamp from ATF and completed the process. This has been explained by others on this thread.

Hoping these comments help someone, since I've received a lot of help by others here on MDS. I am trusting that what the ATF agent told me is reliable information.

Thanks OnTarget. Nice wrap-up. As per #1, that was how I understood the instructions, but you just never know if you are viewing the 'current' issue form. Nice job.

 

[OnTarget]

As an additional note to my message # 235 above, I asked the ATF how many copies of the NFA Trust they would need, and I was told one. Any of you send in two? I read some old posts (2013) on the internet saying to send in two.

 

[outrider58]

I've only ever sent one AFAIK.

 

[OnTarget]

I've only ever sent one AFAIK.

That's probably it, just one, based on what I was told and your experience.

 

[cougar7890]

i have only sent in one, even with multiple items