Conversation with MSP about HBARs

[RoadDawg]

What does "sporter" mean? I take that as no dust cover and no shell deflector. I am no expert. School me (nicely) please.....

Why would either of these two features not be found on a "sport style" rifle? Either of them would benefit a hunting rifle. The dust cover to keep debris out of the ejection port and bolt while hunting. And the deflector to keep casings from bouncing back at the hunter or members of his party.

 

[Inigoes]

Why?

Because if you get into a pissing match with a LEO, you will always lose or take a long time to recover.

If "heavy barrel" or "HBAR" is stamped into the firearm somewhere visible, your chances of winning went up exponentially.

YMMV

 

[Lou45]

I could make a compelling argument that the M203 cut indicates a heavy barrel. One of the changes made on the A2 series was the adoption of a thicker, heavier barrel. Because the M203 had been developed for the thinner A1 profile barrel, it didn't fit on the new rifle. Hence, the new barrel was given a cut.

Would I gamble my property and freedom on that argument holding up with a Maryland jury? Hell no.

The M4 style barrel with the M203 cut, in most instances, is NOT a heavy barrel, Not because of the M203 cut, but the barrel is tapered thin under the handguard. Back in 2004, a Colt LE distributor contracted with Colt to build 300 guns, Model LE6920HB. The LE6920 has a thin tapered barrel under the handguard which makes it a regulated gun in MD, not the M203 cut. The LE6920HB is NONregulated in MD due to it's heavy barrel contour under the handguard, and yes, it has the M203 cut on it. I know, this stupid law is a bunch of ********.

We specifically asked if it had to be stamped "HBAR," and the answer was no, you just have to be able to "articulate" that it is a heavy barreled gun.

The stepped barreled ARs do not qualify, and are regulated.

To "articulate" we put a printout of the manufacturer's description that says HBAR or heavy barrel in the sales file of each rifle in question so that we can prove that the sale was appropriate when we get audited.

I would urge dealers to verify this for themselves and not rely on my word alone, but this came directly from the unit that audits Maryland Regulated Dealers and their sales practices.

The BEST thing to do if the BARREL is NOT marked HBAR (if the exposed portion of the barrel appears to be HBAR) is to pull the handguard to do a visual; tapered thin, not HBAR and regulated. If it's NOT tapered (big and fat [fps likes 'em that way]), it's HBAR and NONregulated. I've had a few instances where the gun was adertised as HBAR (not Colt) and a few of the ~100 guns were indeed, NOT HBAR. If the barrel is NOT marked HBAR and the gun is advertised as HBAR, only one thing to do before selling it, PULL HANDGUARDS and check first.

Not entirely true. When I got my RFD license last year, I was told by the trooper doing the class that the barrel had to be stamped HBAR.

If that is what you were told in class, the Trooper was incorrect making that statement though I can understand why he did it; to avoid any confusion on the dealer's part and he doesn't have to go into all the barrel contours of the AR type rifles.

 

[Bolts Rock]

Somehow I don't think I need to worry about whether or not they think my 17-1/2 pound White Oak Service Rifle isn't a heavy barrel. Likewise for the Double Star 24" bull barrel. Neither of those has HBAR stamped on the barrel.

 

[Ab_Normal]

What does "sporter" mean? I take that as no dust cover and no shell deflector. I am no expert. School me (nicely) please.....

Generally a 'sporter' isn't going to have a flash hider and is going to have a heavy barrel and possibly a fixed stock.

 

[Scott7891]

Not to rain on the OP's parade, but this has been the MSP's policy for years and years.

Also that no two troopers will give you the same answer. This forum is full of similar stories. They are notorious for not being consistent with the law. The troopers are not lawyers nor are they experts on the law even those in the firearms division. Heck there are some in MSP who even said our mag limit was only 10 rounds!! . Yea, the MSP is the last place I'd go for firearms help.

"The list", Gansler's letter, and MSP Firearms Bulletin 96-1 are the only legitimate sources one should use to determine if a firearm is indeed regulated or not. The MSP are generally clueless in this aspect which is why they shouldn't even be the defacto enforcers of our gun laws but that is a debate for another day.

 

[K31]

Or maybe they're geniuses - make it as confusing as possible and the FFLs will be so afraid of accidentally breaking the law that they'll regulate themselves. Out of state dealers will be so scared that they won't even sell to anybody with a Maryland address.

Though this be madness, there is method to it.

I doubt it.

 

[rico903]

Seems interesting how some gun shops in the area will not sell any AR-15 rifles that are not Colt made HBAR rifles and other gun shops will sell any make AR-15 HBAR as non-regulated.

Maryland is indeed all F-'ed up with gun regulations that can't even be interpreted without a lawyer and even then there will be doubt

Well, the list does specifically say Colt. So I guess some dealers are doing the CYA and others are gambling on the lawyers sorting it out.

 

[Inigoes]

Well, the list does specifically say Colt. So I guess some dealers are doing the CYA and others are gambling on the lawyers sorting it out.

The list states "Copies" as well.

 

[SCARCQB]

My Colt AR15 H-Bar is totally de-militarized. It has a 20" heavy barrel that is more acurate than Military barrels, a Fixed stock making it awkward to handle and better A2 sights. It does not have a barrel shoud or the thing that goes up. The anodized aluminum receiver is grey instead of black. The heavy barrel makes the rifle front heavy, this tends to naturally index the rifle into the safer " low ready" position.

This rifle is not as deadly as other AR15 that do not have the HBAR category. The heavy barrel also soaks up the heat from the gunpowder like a heatsink. It reduces the velocity of the 5.56 to subsonic. The lack of a flash hider makes it impossible to use at night. It does not function in areas other than designated ranges that have the 1 shot/ rec rule. The mags also require a clip to load.

These are sold over the counter with minimal paperwork due to its reduced capabilities. Everytime I state these facts to a Liberal, it just makes them proud and happy. I agree, All these AK, Mini 14s, Galils,AUGs Etc.. should be mandated to have HBAR options.

 

[jr88]

So I pose this question to the group; if you went to a Md. shop and they offered to sell an AR with the m-4 barrel and M203 cut(No HBAR Markings) as UNregulated. What would you do? Insist it be regulated, not buy at this FFL or just make the purchase and hope the MSP don't ever come after you and decide you broke the law?

 

[byf43]

First of all. . . . .

Thank You, A1Uniforms for making the Colt 6721 purchase so painless!!! Quick, simple and easy.


Just before "The Ban", I bought a Colt Sporter Match H-Bar from a local (small) FFL from my sportsman's club.
He and I got into a heated debate that lasted several days, because he had me 'register' my HBAR, when this rifle was specifically 'exempted'!!!!!!

This wonderful rifle has the infamous trigger block and 1:7 twist HEAVY barrel, but, has 'standard' holes in the lower, even though the pivot pin is a 'pivot screw'!!!!!
(Let's call this rifle a 'hybrid' or 'bastige' Colt. It does, however, shoot phenomenal groups!!)

Still, having to 'register' ANY rifle is sickening, especially one that's been "EXEMPTED" by MSP.







Again. . . Greg. . . . THANK YOU!!!!!!!!!! It was a pleasure doin' "biness" with you!!

 

[krashmania]

If that is what you were told in class, the Trooper was incorrect making that statement though I can understand why he did it; to avoid any confusion on the dealer's part and he doesn't have to go into all the barrel contours of the AR type rifles.

I tend not to listen to cops who spout off gun laws without being able to state the law itself. I have been told multiple times by a veteran LEO from baltimore that it was illegal to own the 30 found mags in md at all. He refused to believe me.


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[A1Uni]

The M4 style barrel with the M203 cut, in most instances, is NOT a heavy barrel, Not because of the M203 cut, but the barrel is tapered thin under the handguard. Back in 2004, a Colt LE distributor contracted with Colt to build 300 guns, Model LE6920HB. The LE6920 has a thin tapered barrel under the handguard which makes it a regulated gun in MD, not the M203 cut. The LE6920HB is NONregulated in MD due to it's heavy barrel contour under the handguard, and yes, it has the M203 cut on it. I know, this stupid law is a bunch of ********.



The BEST thing to do if the BARREL is NOT marked HBAR (if the exposed portion of the barrel appears to be HBAR) is to pull the handguard to do a visual; tapered thin, not HBAR and regulated. If it's NOT tapered (big and fat [fps likes 'em that way]), it's HBAR and NONregulated. I've had a few instances where the gun was adertised as HBAR (not Colt) and a few of the ~100 guns were indeed, NOT HBAR. If the barrel is NOT marked HBAR and the gun is advertised as HBAR, only one thing to do before selling it, PULL HANDGUARDS and check first.



If that is what you were told in class, the Trooper was incorrect making that statement though I can understand why he did it; to avoid any confusion on the dealer's part and he doesn't have to go into all the barrel contours of the AR type rifles.

You are SO right about that. I recently transferred a Daniel Defense AR that appeared to have a heavy barrel, but because the handguard covered 80% of the barrel one could not be sure.

Close inspection revealed a heavily tapered barrel, not an HBAR. Fortunately the customer understood and there was no issue with the Form 77 and waiting period.

 

[Bolts Rock]

So I pose this question to the group; if you went to a Md. shop and they offered to sell an AR with the m-4 barrel and M203 cut(No HBAR Markings) as UNregulated. What would you do? Insist it be regulated, not buy at this FFL or just make the purchase and hope the MSP don't ever come after you and decide you broke the law?

Wouldn't be an issue because I have zero interest in that barrel configuartion to begin with. If I did have an interest in it the solution is simple, buy an HBAR then an upper in the configuration you describe because uppers are not regulated.

 

[RoadDawg]

My Colt AR15 H-Bar is totally de-militarized. It has a 20" heavy barrel that is more acurate than Military barrels, a Fixed stock making it awkward to handle and better A2 sights. It does not have a barrel shoud or the thing that goes up. The anodized aluminum receiver is grey instead of black. The heavy barrel makes the rifle front heavy, this tends to naturally index the rifle into the safer " low ready" position.

This rifle is not as deadly as other AR15 that do not have the HBAR category. The heavy barrel also soaks up the heat from the gunpowder like a heatsink. It reduces the velocity of the 5.56 to subsonic. The lack of a flash hider makes it impossible to use at night. It does not function in areas other than designated ranges that have the 1 shot/ rec rule. The mags also require a clip to load.

These are sold over the counter with minimal paperwork due to its reduced capabilities. Everytime I state these facts to a Liberal, it just makes them proud and happy. I agree, All these AK, Mini 14s, Galils,AUGs Etc.. should be mandated to have HBAR options.

Really? Not as deadly? I would dare anyone who thinks this is true to stand in front of either barrel to test this inane falsehood. Stupid libtards... You just can't fathom how deeply their ignorance is rooted.

Also there should be only one firearm mandate and that should be:

All laws and regulations enacted are to be tried by the standard of the COTUS, 2A. Any laws or regulations that are found to be in conflict with the provisions of the 2A of the COTUS, shall be null and void.

Any other firearms mandate need not apply...

 

[erwos]

I think teh sarcasm was lost on you.

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[Sportstud4891]

Really? Not as deadly? I would dare anyone who thinks this is true to stand in front of either barrel to test this inane falsehood.

He was definately being sarcastic....evidently he forgot the emoticon. Shame on you SCARCQB for raising RoadDawg's blood pressure with your little trick!

 

[krashmania]

WHOOSH!! Right over the head.

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[RoadDawg]

And I see that the fact that I was responding to the aim-point of his sarcasm (the "dare" was addressed to "anyone who believed it", Not him personally) was entirely wasted on some who read my response.

Yessiree... Right over their heads. So much that they seem to have missed the proposed mandate that I wrote below my comment.

Oh well why read the whole thing when you can come up with a snappy reply within the first paragraph...