*Coming Soon* Walther P-1 Pistol, Cal. 9x21mm

[yellowsled]

Fresh import from CAI, not for sale yet. C&R Ok... Discuss....


9x21 IMI Cal. designed by Israel Military Industries Wiki

 

[rseymorejr]

Interesting.
I wonder if the 9x21 would be a bit stout for that aluminum frame?

 

[Alphabrew]

Never heard of a 9x21. That's a new one on me. Sounds bad a$$ though! Where would one get ammo for it?

 

[yellowsled]

Seller & Bellot and Fiocchi make it, along with some others. Not some stuff you woould pick up at WM, if you shopped here.

 

[Alphabrew]

I've seen lots of 9x18 mak for sale on the interwebs, never 9x21.

 

[yellowsled]

from what I read, 9x21 was used in countries that banned 9x19 because its a "military" round.

 

[Alphabrew]

LOL, silly hippies.

 

[Machodoc]

Places like Starline occasionally have brass for these, and they can be reloaded with 9x19 dies ... so long as you use the 9x21 COAL specs. We'll probably see some ammo for these come in after they start selling them.

As for collector value, I'm not sure that these are going to be great investments. They are re-chambered P1s on AL alloy frames, after all, and don't have any real history. The price is pretty decent, so it might be worth having one in the safe, but I don't think they are going to generate wild excitement.

 

[kalister1]

9x19 P1's are sold as C&R, I cannot find any listing of A P1 being a C&R Though?

 

[yellowsled]

P-1's and P-38's are lumped together as per the ATF.

 

[smores]

Never heard of a 9x21. That's a new one on me. Sounds bad a$$ though! Where would one get ammo for it?

from what I read, 9x21 was used in countries that banned 9x19 because its a "military" round.

This. It's popular in Italy, a la the Beretta 98FS pistols.



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[kalister1]

2 mm is ~.080", do you think these will feed OK? What about the Mags? Do you think they did something to the Mag/Magwell to get them to feed?
I guess I am thinking about using Stock P1/P38 mags, or will these have their own?

 

[Machodoc]

2 mm is ~.080", do you think these will feed OK? What about the Mags? Do you think they did something to the Mag/Magwell to get them to feed?
I guess I am thinking about using Stock P1/P38 mags, or will these have their own?

Not sure what you are talking about, but if anyone is thinking about using 9x19 Luger ammo in a gun chambered for 9x21 ... DON'T! At best, it will erode the chamber. At worst, it will erode you.

They would probably come with their own mags, but stock P1 mags might very well work.

 

[Machodoc]

This. Aka "9mm Largo". It's popular in Italy, a la the Beretta 98FS pistols.

There's a "largo" round that was developed in 1910, also known as the 9mm Bergmann-Bayard round, but it's 9x23 mm. I'm not sure they are the same. That's a good question. The largo round was used in some of the Spanish Star pistols.

 

[kalister1]

Not sure what you are talking about, but if anyone is thinking about using 9x19 ammo in a gun chambered for 9x21 ... DON'T! At best, it will erode the chamber. At worst, it will erode you.

They would probably come with their own mags, but stock P1 mags might very well work.

That is what I am talking about, will these use 9 X 19 mags?

 

[Machodoc]

That is what I am talking about, will these use 9 X 19 mags?

I don't know, for sure, but it sounds like they only took the standard P-1 and re-chambered it.

I did some research, and the idea of the 9x21 round is that the casing is longer, but that the bullet is seated more deeply, giving the round the same overall dimensions as the Luger (9x19). That suggests that the regular P38/P1 mags should work fine.

It also suggests that you can probably chamber a 9x19 round in one of these guns, and fire it, but it wouldn't be a good idea. It would be bad for the gun, and potentially bad for you (and as sure as I say this, someone will pop up and say, "Oh, it's fine ... I do it all the time!" ... which is not the same as it being a good idea).

Conversely, the rounds made for these pistols should not chamber properly in a 9x19 mm "Luger" firearm. The case should be a bit too long.

The "Largo" rounds are not the same. They are 9x23 mm, and will not work in the modified P1s in question.

 

[smores]

There's a "largo" round that was developed in 1910, also known as the 9mm Bergmann-Bayard round, but it's 9x23 mm. I'm not sure they are the same. That's a good question. The largo round was used in some of the Spanish Star pistols.

I stand corrected! My post has been edited to remove the mistake. I had them backwards...

Thanks.



Si vis pacem para bellum

follow me @DiscipleofJMB

 

[kalister1]

I don't know, for sure, but it sounds like they only took the standard P-1 and re-chambered it.

I did some research, and the idea of the 9x21 round is that the casing is longer, but that the bullet is seated more deeply, giving the round the same overall dimensions as the Luger (9x19). That suggests that the regular P38/P1 mags should work fine.

If this is the case, you really get no benefit? No more case capacity. Does the 9 x 21 operate at a higher pressure?

 

[kazan182]

I don't know, for sure, but it sounds like they only took the standard P-1 and re-chambered it.

I did some research, and the idea of the 9x21 round is that the casing is longer, but that the bullet is seated more deeply, giving the round the same overall dimensions as the Luger (9x19). That suggests that the regular P38/P1 mags should work fine.

It also suggests that you can probably chamber a 9x19 round in one of these guns, and fire it, but it wouldn't be a good idea. It would be bad for the gun, and potentially bad for you (and as sure as I say this, someone will pop up and say, "Oh, it's fine ... I do it all the time!" ... which is not the same as it being a good idea).

Conversely, the rounds made for these pistols should not chamber properly in a 9x19 mm "Luger" firearm. The case should be a bit too long.

The "Largo" rounds are not the same. They are 9x23 mm, and will not work in the modified P1s in question.

I think I would buy one if these were the hex pinned P1's. Considering they pinned the 9x19's because of issues I would expect the 9x21 to be the same or perhaps worse.

I guess a few rounds would be ok or reload and reduce the charge???

 

[Machodoc]

If this is the case, you really get no benefit? No more case capacity. Does the 9 x 21 operate at a higher pressure?

I've read that it was introduced because civilians couldn't own weapons that fired military ammo. That may be, but if the SHTF, one of these could probably hold together for awhile shooting 9x19 ammo, but a military weapon could not shoot the civilian ammo. That seems to defeat the purpose.

One thing that you probably could do with this round is compress the powder a bit more efficiently than with a 9x19. That's not how typical military rounds are loaded, but it's a way of pushing a load to the edge of safety ... or beyond. There's not really any need for the average person to do that, but some competitive shooters feel that they get more accurate loads that way.

Having the bullet seated another 2mm into brass, with all other things the same, would increase the pressure a bit, but I wouldn't think that it would be any more of an increase than you'd get with a solid "factory" crimp.

For the pistols in question, though, the barrels would probably hold up to a round with increased pressure, but the AL frames would be the weak point for wear. If they were hex pinned, that would make things better, but I'd still be cautious with them. I'd probably only shoot modest loads in 9x21 brass.