CA4 Issues Stay, Expedites Appeal

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  • Haides

    Ultimate Member
    Oct 12, 2012
    3,784
    Glen Burnie
    If the court rules that Maryland must allow open carry but are still allowed to restrict concealed carry with G&S, what's to stop Maryland from completely removing concealed carry entirely, because there's no point in regulating it anymore if people can already have guns in public now, as their intention in regulating it was to keep most from being able to carry at all in the first place?
     

    fightinbluhen51

    "Quack Pot Call Honker"
    Oct 31, 2008
    8,974
    If the court rules that Maryland must allow open carry but are still allowed to restrict concealed carry with G&S, what's to stop Maryland from completely removing concealed carry entirely, because there's no point in regulating it anymore if people can already have guns in public now, as their intention in regulating it was to keep most from being able to carry at all in the first place?
    It won't happen. To many are privileged to travel where they please with their permits and that won't be taken away from them.

    Some serfs are more equal than others.
     

    esqappellate

    President, MSI
    Feb 12, 2012
    7,408
    All we can do now is wait and see. We have not lost, yet and we don't know what the court will say or how they will rule. We can thrash through the options after we have an opinion, which is months away in all likelihood. In the meantime, we should be looking forward to a ruling from the 7th Circuit in Moore/Shepard and from the 2nd Circuit in Kachalsky. Both of those cases will probably come down before Woollard and, if so, both will likely impact on what the CA4 does in our case. We are only in the early 3d quarter here and we are still leading.
     

    Tomcat

    Formerly Known As HITWTOM
    May 7, 2012
    5,587
    St.Mary's County
    I'm voting straight republican this year. At least for anything in MD. There might be some good Dem's out there but the party line needs to change in MD.

    The republican party has pissed me off, but I'm doing the same. Republicans in Maryland are mostly just conservative Democrats. :) Need to break the stranglehold the party has on this state.

    For what it's worth, if you're a registered Democrat, you might want to keep it that way for the primary elections. In some areas ther are none or only one Republican canidate for an office. If there are none, vote for the Democrat you want in office since he will be un-opposed in the general elections. If there's one, vote for the weaker Democrat so the Republican stands a better chance. Just my 2 cents worth.
     

    m4strmind

    Active Member
    Nov 14, 2006
    607
    For what it's worth, if you're a registered Democrat, you might want to keep it that way for the primary elections. In some areas ther are none or only one Republican canidate for an office. If there are none, vote for the Democrat you want in office since he will be un-opposed in the general elections. If there's one, vote for the weaker Democrat so the Republican stands a better chance. Just my 2 cents worth.

    I'm a registered republican :)

    maybe i should run for office ;)
     

    Mr H

    Unincited Co-Conservative
    For what it's worth, if you're a registered Democrat, you might want to keep it that way for the primary elections. In some areas ther are none or only one Republican canidate for an office. If there are none, vote for the Democrat you want in office since he will be un-opposed in the general elections. If there's one, vote for the weaker Democrat so the Republican stands a better chance. Just my 2 cents worth.

    Wife and I are "unaffiliated" conservatives, but may do just that next primary season, in an effort to undermine incumbency. Maybe then, we can get a friendy GA...

    But that's probably a topic for another thread.
     

    jonnyl

    Ultimate Member
    Sep 23, 2009
    5,969
    Frederick
    The question is facial. Does the 2A exist outside the home. Facial meaning the whole verse of 2A, not just the bearing of arms part. Maryland can't say you have the right to keep arms outside the home, you just can't bear arms outside the home. Saying this splits the 2A which is unconstitutional. Since Maryland says you can take a weapon to the range ( keep arms) then Maryland recognizes the right exists outside the home. Maryland can not pick and chose the parts of the constitution they will abide by.

    I think you're reading too much into Maryland giving permission to transport. Maryland doesn't have to recognize the right to allow you to take a gun to the range. They're just allowing you to do something because they're so nice. Similar to the fact that my daughter doesn't have a right to watch TV in my house just because within our guidelines we allow her to watch TV sometimes. Her TV watching is completely at my whim and I can revoke at any time.

    That's basically Maryland's position. They're then further saying "even if it does exist outside the home, we're in compliance because folks can carry a shotgun for self defense"

    which as we all know is BS...
     

    rambling_one

    Ultimate Member
    MDS Supporter
    Oct 19, 2007
    6,771
    Bowie, MD
    For what it's worth, if you're a registered Democrat, you might want to keep it that way for the primary elections. In some areas ther are none or only one Republican canidate for an office. If there are none, vote for the Democrat you want in office since he will be un-opposed in the general elections. If there's one, vote for the weaker Democrat so the Republican stands a better chance. Just my 2 cents worth.

    Yep, that's been my strategy for years.
     

    Broadside

    Active Member
    Mar 20, 2012
    305
    Virginia
    If I may, I would like to put a question to esqappellate.

    I have not listened to the oral arguments at the 4th Circuit. However, from the reports I've read it appears that the three judge panel was looking for some way to rule in favor of the State.

    Now to my question. Does the 4th Circuit take into consideration how the Supreme Court may rule? I'm not saying formally, but does it weigh on their minds that the Supreme Court could reverse their decision?

    My understanding is that 4th Circuit will issue a ruling and an opinion supporting the ruling. Their ruling would then be subject to scrutiny by the Supreme Court. Will they take that into consideration when writing their opinion?

    Basically, what I'm asking is whether the 4th Circuit will care that the Supreme Court may call them idiots?
     

    esqappellate

    President, MSI
    Feb 12, 2012
    7,408
    If I may, I would like to put a question to esqappellate.

    I have not listened to the oral arguments at the 4th Circuit. However, from the reports I've read it appears that the three judge panel was looking for some way to rule in favor of the State.

    Now to my question. Does the 4th Circuit take into consideration how the Supreme Court may rule? I'm not saying formally, but does it weigh on their minds that the Supreme Court could reverse their decision?

    My understanding is that 4th Circuit will issue a ruling and an opinion supporting the ruling. Their ruling would then be subject to scrutiny by the Supreme Court. Will they take that into consideration when writing their opinion?

    Basically, what I'm asking is whether the 4th Circuit will care that the Supreme Court may call them idiots?

    you really ought to listen to the tape. You don't have to be a lawyer to get an idea for the drift of the argument. Everyone can have a take on what they hear. But to answer your question, no court likes to get reversed by the SCT. Judges also know that VERY few cases ever make it to the SCT. As one 9th Circuit judge (who I won't name) said once: "The Supreme Court can't take them all" -- by which he meant that his opinions usually are the final word, no matter how off the wall. If they are doing their job properly, the CA4 panel will apply logic, reason and policy to an interpretation of Heller. But Judges are human and a lot of judges are profoundly uncomfortable with the notion of people walking around with loaded handguns. So they look for a way to avoid the question, eg "Rooker Feldman" or "standing" or punt. You saw that in Judge King's remarks, in Wilkinson's opinion and in the Williams case, just to name a few. That's the battle. Judges shy away from a result that they can't personally accept. We shall see.
     

    esqappellate

    President, MSI
    Feb 12, 2012
    7,408
    News on PISZCZATOSK in the 3d Circuit. Recall at issue in that case is the constitutionality of the NJ carry statute -- very similar to that of MD.
    Order came out today: submission date in the 3d Circuit is Feb. 12, 2013. The panel will decide on whether there will be oral argument. See attached.

    I crossed posted in the National 2A forum, but since the case is discussed here, I thought it appropriate to post it here too.
     

    Attachments

    • PiszczatoskiOralargument.pdf
      42 KB · Views: 121

    swinokur

    In a State of Bliss
    Patriot Picket
    Apr 15, 2009
    55,525
    Westminster USA
    Here is an article on the NYC Courts attempt to get back to normalcy.
    After Hurricane Sandy, Courts in New York Struggle to Restore Operations



    Hurricane Sandy, which caused widespread chaos throughout the Northeast, has put federal courts based in Manhattan in their worst operational crisis since the 9/11 terrorist attacks. With only gasoline-fueled generator power and widespread interruptions in Internet and telephone service, four federal court buildings in Manhattan were closed for a week, except for a few emergency hearings. Across the East River, a U.S. District Court in Brooklyn had power but no telephone or Internet.
    Judges in America’s largest federal trial court struggled to hold hearings in gloomy spaces lit by emergency lamps. Jurors and witnesses were scattered across a region stricken by flood damage and transit shutdowns. Probation officers scrambled to monitor hundreds of criminal defendants who evacuated their homes or were out of reach because of massive power outages.
    “There are no lights in judges’ chambers, there are no phones,” said Edward Friedland, New York Southern District Court Executive. “We’re doing a lot of improvising. Things that normally take 15 minutes can take an hour.”
    Chief Judge Loretta Preska said the first priority is to reassemble key players for six to seven jury trials that were in progress when the storm hit, including a criminal trial she is presiding over that was getting ready to go to the jury. The case involves the retrial of an attorney who was convicted for his role in a multi-billion-dollar fraud at the defunct commodities broker Refco.
    “Obviously, we don’t want too much time to pass,” Preska said. “All of our cases on trial are in dire straits.”
    U.S. District Judge P. Kevin Castel presided over a time-sensitive international abduction case in the Moynihan Courthouse, which lost power due to the storm, using a temporary table lamp and natural sunlight to light the courtroom.
    The New York Southern District Court, which handles some of the nation’s most high profile cases, has suspended criminal trials for the first time since the 9/11 attacks. Preska also has issued orders extending deadlines in pending criminal and civil cases.
    The U.S. Court of Appeals for the Second Circuit, the New York Southern Bankruptcy Court, and the U.S. Court of International Trade, also lost electricity and stopped public operations while working feverishly to reopen. (For the status of all federal courts, visit the court locator.)
    Nevertheless, the Southern District Court pressed on in a few emergency cases. The day after Hurricane Sandy left the area, a hearing in a case depended on a telephone conference call – challenging in a courthouse without telephone service. One of the litigants finally was able to organize the call on his cell phone. Participants in the call huddled in front of the bench, straining to hear the conversation.
    The following day, an emergency hearing in an international child abduction case was held in a gloomy courtroom lit only with a lamp powered by generator. With no audio system, the proceeding was interrupted as the court reporter paused to ask that witnesses repeat themselves.
    Away from the public courtrooms, the district’s probation and pretrial office building was completely non-functional. Officers have worked from home and in government-issued vehicles, trying to track down about 3,800 offenders and defendants under their watch. According to Michael Fitzpatrick, chief probation officer for the court, 393 medium and high-risk offenders reside in Manhattan, many beyond oversight because of power outages and storm evacuations.
    “Thanks to the mapping feature of PACTS, our case tracking system, we know who we need to see. We just have some areas that are inaccessible,” said Fitzpatrick. “We have people out there all day looking.”
    He added that pretrial investigators are limited in their ability to prepare case reports for functions such as bail hearings.
    The New York Southern District not only has more judges than any other federal courthouse, it also handles some of the nation’s highest-profile cases. More than 10,000 complaints are filed in this court each year. The court is in the pretrial phase of United States v. Mustafa, a case involving an Islamic cleric accused of aiding al Qaeda. Just before the storm, Rajat Gupta, a former Procter & Gamble CEO and Goldman Sachs chairman, was sentenced to 2 years in prison for insider trading.
    Friedland said that even with generators, the power loss has slowed the most rudimentary court operations. At the Moynihan courthouse, which houses the Southern District Court and the Court of Appeals, 90 percent of electrical sockets are dead. Of more than 20 elevators, only three are functioning. During a bail hearing Tuesday, staffers were running up and down darkened stairways to bring documents to and from the few functioning copy machines.
    Other necessities also have been disrupted by the power loss. On Thursday after the storm, Judge Preska roamed the court’s hallways, feeding court staff with pizza and other food she had purchased outside the power-outage zone.
    Hallways were empty in a typically busy Moynihan Courthouse, the venue for much of the nation's major financial litigation.
    Electricity is not the only challenge facing the Manhattan Courts. Other major challenges will persist even after the power grid is restored.
    Public transportation remained in disarray inside and outside the city, including a total shutdown in southern Manhattan, making it difficult to get employees, jurors and witnesses to the court.
    A number of steps are being taken to restore order and create courtroom capacity. Additional generators were expected to open two additional courtrooms by Friday, and plans were being made to schedule some hearings in an emergency backup courthouse in White Plains, located north of the city. Courts outside the city have volunteered space for hearings and for judges to work. But as of late Thursday, those efforts were far from completion. Where the Moynihan Courthouse alone has 42 courtrooms, by Thursday, the entire Southern District had only seven “truly functional” courtrooms,” Friedland said.
    The Administrative Office of the U.S. Courts and its Judiciary Emergency Response Team have helped the court get back on its feet, coordinating communications with the Federal Emergency Management Agency and others, providing special expedited contract authority, and reestablishing information technology and web systems.
    Chief Judge Preska has been deeply gratified by all the efforts to keep the justice process moving, even when most of the lights are out.
    “The people who run our building have been splendid,” Preska said. “The staff has been here day and night.”











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    fightinbluhen51

    "Quack Pot Call Honker"
    Oct 31, 2008
    8,974

    swinokur

    In a State of Bliss
    Patriot Picket
    Apr 15, 2009
    55,525
    Westminster USA
    You are right, but it's not copyrighted material. It's from a Court news RSS feed.

    Don't think fair use is applicable here. But IANAL
     

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