C&R Transfer Question.

[BossmanPJ]

Experts,

I have a chance to buy a C&R handgun from another member. The meeting would be taking place in Pennsylvania and we are both Maryland residents of legal.

My question:

The handgun in question was purchased by the seller by doing standard paperwork and a 7 day wait. I do not believe it was needed, but that is what it was done as.

Can he legally sell it to me as a C&R firearm if he did standard paperwork on it in Maryland, or will we need to do it through an FFL and I use my C&R there?

Thanks if anyone can give advice.

 

[mopar92]

IF the transaction is out of state, C&R applies as with a C&R you are the FFL. In this case no 7 day wait is necessary as the transaction takes place outside of MD. If the transaction occurs in MD it must go through an FFL01 (Dealer) and is subject to the 7 day wait.

 

[BossmanPJ]

IF the transaction is out of state, C&R applies as with a C&R you are the FFL. In this case no 7 day wait is necessary as the transaction takes place outside of MD. If the transaction occurs in MD it must go through an FFL01 (Dealer) and is subject to the 7 day wait.

Thanks Mopar. I wanted to make sure before I went ahead and did it. I had not encountered this situation in the past.

 

[Bob A]

If it's C&R you can do it for ten bucks at a MSP barracks. Seven day wait, of course, but no need for a HQL. You won't need your C&R, which is essentially inop in MD.

The Pennsylvania thing is a grey zone.

 

[somd_mustangs]

This comes up a lot; probably nobody cares about my opinion but the ability to bring a C&R handgun into Maryland on your FFL-03 is specifically because you are "importing" it into the state (see the AG letter floating around).
Since it's already registered IN the state (regardless of where it is physically transferred) it's not being "imported" and thus would need to go thru a MD FFL-01.
However, you could have the seller transfer it to an FFL-01 in PA on their book, and then have them transfer to you on your FFL-03 (That's not a straw purchase).

If you do MD-to-MD transfer direct it would be in your bound book that way which may be problematic down the road.
(typical argument - "but MSP can't audit a FFL-03's books" - riiight).

 

[BeoBill]

This comes up a lot; probably nobody cares about my opinion but the ability to bring a C&R handgun into Maryland on your FFL-03 is specifically because you are "importing" it into the state (see the AG letter floating around).
Since it's already registered IN the state (regardless of where it is physically transferred) it's not being "imported" and thus would need to go thru a MD FFL-01.
However, you could have the seller transfer it to an FFL-01 in PA on their book, and then have them transfer to you on your FFL-03 (That's not a straw purchase).

If you do MD-to-MD transfer direct it would be in your bound book that way which may be problematic down the road.
(typical argument - "but MSP can't audit a FFL-03's books" - riiight).

How would the MSP know if either party didn't tell them and the transfer took place out of state?

 

[whistlersmother]

How would the MSP know if either party didn't tell them and the transfer took place out of state?

Not particularly is it about what MSP knows or doesn't know...

I agree with somd - its a grey zone for a direct ffl03 to ffl03 outside of MD between two MD residents.

If ATF audits either one, the question may be raised of whether MD law was followed upon seeing such a transfer.

IMHO and IANAL, ffl03 was created to allow interstate transfer of c$r. A transfer between 2 MD residents, regardless of transaction location, may just fall outside that scope.

 

[yellowsled]

Out of state, you are good to go so long as the buyer has their ffl03.

 

[Machodoc]

This comes up a lot; probably nobody cares about my opinion but the ability to bring a C&R handgun into Maryland on your FFL-03 is specifically because you are "importing" it into the state (see the AG letter floating around).
Since it's already registered IN the state (regardless of where it is physically transferred) it's not being "imported" and thus would need to go thru a MD FFL-01.
However, you could have the seller transfer it to an FFL-01 in PA on their book, and then have them transfer to you on your FFL-03 (That's not a straw purchase).

If you do MD-to-MD transfer direct it would be in your bound book that way which may be problematic down the road.
(typical argument - "but MSP can't audit a FFL-03's books" - riiight).

I don't have to deal with this nonsense, as I'm not a MD resident, but SOMD Mustangs makes good points: it's going to have to be logged into the recipient's Bound Book as a sale from another owner in MD, and that seems to be murky water.

 

[BossmanPJ]

It has always been my understanding that 2 residents of the same state can meet in another state to conduct a C&R transfer of a handgun.

The problem is that the state laws and federal laws are not the same.

My other confusion would be why the ATF would care about Maryland transfer laws as long as the laws are not broken on a Federal level.

To me, if you have a C&R FFL and are receiving a C&R eligible firearm, there should be no issue at all on a Federal level.

 

[somd_mustangs]

It has always been my understanding that 2 residents of the same state can meet in another state to conduct a C&R transfer of a handgun.

As long as state law of the RESIDENTS doesn't prevent it. [27 CFR 478.93]

Here's an example: you can't go to PA and legally transfer a standard-barrel AR-15 or an AK-47 between 2 MD residents and then come back to MD with it to circumvent MD law.
No one here would ever call that legal (I hope).

The problem is that the state laws and federal laws are not the same.

True enough. State law overrides federal in this case.
"But I'll be in PA, MD can't touch me" - until you cross back into MD.

My other confusion would be why the ATF would care about Maryland transfer laws as long as the laws are not broken on a Federal level.

To me, if you have a C&R FFL and are receiving a C&R eligible firearm, there should be no issue at all on a Federal level.

They probably don't and there probably isn't. But MSP surely cares, and there's definitely cooperation between ATF and MSP (remember the VA FFL that caused early morning visits by MSP?).


It doesn't matter if MSP "knows" about the transfer at the time or not - if they DO find out at some point you could be hosed.

Remember in this particular case the handgun is already registered in MD so they know it exists "in MD" and thus it
IS NOT BEING IMPORTED INTO MD
(which is the qualification for direct transfer to FFL-03 per AG letter and also per the "sole intent" of the FFL-03 at the federal level).

The state law and importation-only seem to be pretty compelling to me but do what you will...

 

[MightyWarMonger]

file:///C:/Users/e13106/Downloads/01C&R%20letter%20interstate(3).pdf
this is the link to the AG letter on this you will have to copy & paste.

 

[somd_mustangs]

file:///C:/Users/e13106/Downloads/01C&R%20letter%20interstate(3).pdf
this is the link to the AG letter on this you will have to copy & paste.

That's a link on your hard drive, if anyone can see it you're probably in a world of hurt

 

[CasualObserver]

That's a link on your hard drive, if anyone can see it you're probably in a world of hurt

file:///C:/Users/e13106/Downloads/01C&R%20letter%20interstate(3).pdf
this is the link to the AG letter on this you will have to copy & paste.

I have it book marked. I think this is what you are looking for...

https://www.mdshooters.com/showpost.php?p=490843&postcount=5

 

[Squaregrouper]

I have posted this before, but will throw in my 2 cents again...
Yes, meeting out of state could become muddy becuse it could easily be construed as intentionally skirting the law. On the other hand, coincidentally happening across another fellow MD FFL03 while out of state seems perfectly fine to me.

EX- MDS1 puts a C&R pistol in the classifieds. MDS2 wants to buy it. They make arrangements to meet just over the state line in PA to swap pistol, cash and FFL03 copies. Froshiepoo may have reason to try to prosecute due to the intentional meet-up out of state.

EX#2: MDS3 is at a gun show in Chantilly/York/etc with a C&R pistol for sale. MDS4 also has an FFL03 and wants to buy it. They exchange the pistol, cash and FFL03 copies. There was no intent on skirting any laws and the transaction legitimately took place outside of MD. I believe Froshiepoo would have a much harder time successfully proving intent.

IANAL

 

[sxs]

My personal opinion is that a transfer between 2 MD residents of a c&r is legal, but very grey. I have had offers to meet out of state but always just paid up th $10 to MDSP. It's cheaper than driving 40 min to an hour to get out of state and far cheaper than lawyer fees to fight it out in court should an issue arise. My pockets aren't so deep as to play with potential fire. And then there is also the issue that IANAL and could be wrong. For that matter, everything being grey and this being MD, it would be easy for a lawyer to be wrong about what a court may find. FYI, just because you did a 77R doesn't absolve one of making an entry into their 03 FFL book.

 

[somd_mustangs]

I have posted this before, but will throw in my 2 cents again...
Yes, meeting out of state could become muddy becuse it could easily be construed as intentionally skirting the law. On the other hand, coincidentally happening across another fellow MD FFL03 while out of state seems perfectly fine to me.

EX- MDS1 puts a C&R pistol in the classifieds. MDS2 wants to buy it. They make arrangements to meet just over the state line in PA to swap pistol, cash and FFL03 copies. Froshiepoo may have reason to try to prosecute due to the intentional meet-up out of state.

EX#2: MDS3 is at a gun show in Chantilly/York/etc with a C&R pistol for sale. MDS4 also has an FFL03 and wants to buy it. They exchange the pistol, cash and FFL03 copies. There was no intent on skirting any laws and the transaction legitimately took place outside of MD. I believe Froshiepoo would have a much harder time successfully proving intent.

IANAL

Unless you're a Clinton, intent has nothing to do with whether something is legal or not

 

[Mark75H]

I'm inclined to follow sxs's line of thinking on this. No point in pressing the issue and possibly exploding C&R for the entire MD population with a court case. How rare would a gun have to be to make this worthwhile?

 

[Machodoc]

Unless you're a Clinton, intent has nothing to do with whether something is legal or not

TRUE DAT!!

It wouldn't be a federal issue, but it could be a MD issue. Why chance it? You'll probably spend more in gas money going to PA than the cost of going through a MSP transfer and being patient.

 

[BossmanPJ]

TRUE DAT!!

It wouldn't be a federal issue, but it could be a MD issue. Why chance it? You'll probably spend more in gas money going to PA than the cost of going through a MSP transfer and being patient.

This is true