Building a firearm, how many?

[fabsroman]

Fabs, not sure if you'd agree, but I draw parallels to the guidelines for an 03ffl. As a c&r holder you can both collect and sell firearms without being engaged in the business thereof. Yes it is a fine line, but in both collecting and homebuilding you can buy and sell to enhance your personal collection. When I'm not on my phone I'll have to dig up the atf 03 portion that, albeit vaguely, qualifies "engaged in the business."

18 U.S. Code § 921 - Definitions

(21) The term “engaged in the business” means—
(A) as applied to a manufacturer of firearms, a person who devotes time, attention, and labor to manufacturing firearms as a regular course of trade or business with the principal objective of livelihood and profit through the sale or distribution of the firearms manufactured;
(B) as applied to a manufacturer of ammunition, a person who devotes time, attention, and labor to manufacturing ammunition as a regular course of trade or business with the principal objective of livelihood and profit through the sale or distribution of the ammunition manufactured;
(C) as applied to a dealer in firearms, as defined in section 921(a)(11)(A), a person who devotes time, attention, and labor to dealing in firearms as a regular course of trade or business with the principal objective of livelihood and profit through the repetitive purchase and resale of firearms, but such term shall not include a person who makes occasional sales, exchanges, or purchases of firearms for the enhancement of a personal collection or for a hobby, or who sells all or part of his personal collection of firearms;
(D) as applied to a dealer in firearms, as defined in section 921(a)(11)(B), a person who devotes time, attention, and labor to engaging in such activity as a regular course of trade or business with the principal objective of livelihood and profit, but such term shall not include a person who makes occasional repairs of firearms, or who occasionally fits special barrels, stocks, or trigger mechanisms to firearms;
(E) as applied to an importer of firearms, a person who devotes time, attention, and labor to importing firearms as a regular course of trade or business with the principal objective of livelihood and profit through the sale or distribution of the firearms imported; and
(F) as applied to an importer of ammunition, a person who devotes time, attention, and labor to importing ammunition as a regular course of trade or business with the principal objective of livelihood and profit through the sale or distribution of the ammunition imported.

(22) The term “with the principal objective of livelihood and profit” means that the intent underlying the sale or disposition of firearms is predominantly one of obtaining livelihood and pecuniary gain, as opposed to other intents, such as improving or liquidating a personal firearms collection: Provided, That proof of profit shall not be required as to a person who engages in the regular and repetitive purchase and disposition of firearms for criminal purposes or terrorism.

Don't know if anybody has linked to this yet.

 

[Mark75H]

I concur, 80%'s are way less than twice a store bought gun, even in today's glut market. My estimate would be something like 15-20% over the cost of a compareable store bought gun ... about in line with an HQL class, prints and application fee. About break even at this time. I don't own a milling machine or precsion drill press ... but I do have some special fixtures (that I made myself) that let me get the work done with simple tools.

 

[Sticky]

The common denominator is 'regular course of trade' in each of those definitions. Should I decide to get rid of some guns I built, I wouldn't hesitate in the least, I can sell them, they don't need to be marked, since I am not a licensee (FFL) and I am perfectly legal in doing so. Should I dump a bunch at once, it 'could' raise an eyebrow with the ATF, but I seriously doubt it.. didn't built THAT MANY..

As for the HQL, MD can stick it.. I ain't giving them one more $$ than I have to, it's BS and does nothing beyond what was already in place to try to keep firearms out of the hands of those who shouldn't own them... screw em!

My first Glock19 build came in at less than $500 (with a Vickers upper). The next one may be a little more, but it will be more than a stock 'Glock' build and I gain the satisfaction of knowing I built some of it myself and made it all work (and didn't have to spend another $75 (not counting training costs, but I already have that) on BS regulation and legislation to keep the nuts happy in Annapolis). A Sig is in process and lastly I want to do a 1911, and will, one day soon.

 

[chipd]

I just find it wild that one hour of your time to get printed and about 130 bucks in fees is enough for you to surrender your right to buy handguns. You're not sticking it to anyone but yourself.

 

[Sticky]

I just find it wild that one hour of your time to get printed and about 130 bucks in fees is enough for you to surrender your right to buy handguns. You're not sticking it to anyone but yourself.

I have handguns...had some of them since I was a youngster... After I finish these few, I'll likely not buy another, as most of my bases are covered for what I want/need. I have been printed, checked, rechecked, trained and they still want me to spend more money, do most of that yet again, and have records of everything I do... I resent that. This is the reasoning.

 

[chipd]

the people that you resent are sitting back and telling themselves "that was so easy!"

 

[Sticky]

That's okay... I have my guns, I will enjoy them and in the end, I'll take my money elsewhere. The state is driving people like me away... it's a shame, I love it here, lived here almost 60 years, but it is soon time to move on to more a more hospitable and affordable location, so in the end, the joke will be on them.

 

[Mark75H]

I just find it wild that one hour of your time to get printed and about 130 bucks in fees is enough for you to surrender your right to buy handguns. You're not sticking it to anyone but yourself.

In no way does not having an HQL surrender one's right to buy handguns. Handguns meeting C&R are exempt. Lots of very fine handguns on the market meeting this criteria.

Chippy, you have no idea whether HQL refuser/protesters are buying guns or not.

 

[fabsroman]

I just find it wild that one hour of your time to get printed and about 130 bucks in fees is enough for you to surrender your right to buy handguns. You're not sticking it to anyone but yourself.

It isn't the hour of time or the money that causes me grief, it is getting printed like a common criminal to exercise my 2nd Amendment Right that bugs the hell out of me. Heck, it would behoove my pocket book to spend the time getting the HQL and just buying the guns versus actually spending the time building them. However, it would not behoove my personal satisfaction of, as I already said, building a gun myself.

The people that passed the law can sit back and think they have accomplished what they set out to do, but people like you will bend over and get the HQL and get more handguns, people like me will bend over and build our own handguns, and the criminals will still get handguns. So, while they are smirking at a great job accomplished, did they really accomplish anything?

 

[chipd]

there's nothing bending over about spending 1 hour of your time and 130 bucks. seriously. it is absurd, but where have you been? the government is beyond absurd. if you aren't willing to do a few things you don't like, you're not going to have much quality of life.

 

[Sticky]

It isn't the hour of time or the money that causes me grief, it is getting printed like a common criminal to exercise my 2nd Amendment Right that bugs the hell out of me. Heck, it would behoove my pocket book to spend the time getting the HQL and just buying the guns versus actually spending the time building them. However, it would not behoove my personal satisfaction of, as I already said, building a gun myself.

The people that passed the law can sit back and think they have accomplished what they set out to do, but people like you will bend over and get the HQL and get more handguns, people like me will bend over and build our own handguns, and the criminals will still get handguns. So, while they are smirking at a great job accomplished, did they really accomplish anything?

Exactly! and I might add, that the HQL requirement has done absolutely NOTHING to reduce crime or the use of handguns in the commission of crimes in the state. We still LEAD the country in deaths per capita in the city of Baltimore, so.... how has the HQL helped reduce crime and can you really show me where this it nothing more than another handicap to the 2A right of us law-abiding taxpayers in the state?

 

[Sticky]

there's nothing bending over about spending 1 hour of your time and 130 bucks. seriously. it is absurd, but where have you been? the government is beyond absurd. if you aren't willing to do a few things you don't like, you're not going to have much quality of life.

I have an outstanding quality of life. I couldn't be happier and I am old enough to know that I can do as I please and not do as others may try and dictate I do. I have played the game, now it's on my terms and my terms only.

Besides, I get far more satisfaction taking some time to fabricate a useful to me tool by my own hands, customizing as I go, than going out to a store and buying it... and paying more MD sales tax to do so...

It's more than an hour of my time, it takes, if I remember correctly, a 4 hour class to qualify for the HQL, another hour or so to shlep over and get prints done, fill out all of the required paperwork and take it all to the post office and mail it, or submit it online. I would have far less issue with the whole process if it were for some reasonable good to deter crime, but alas, it's merely a cookie to appease those who oppose guns. This, I am against.

 

[teratos]

Exactly! and I might add, that the HQL requirement has done absolutely NOTHING to reduce crime or the use of handguns in the commission of crimes in the state. We still LEAD the country in deaths per capita in the city of Baltimore, so.... how has the HQL helped reduce crime and can you really show me where this it nothing more than another handicap to the 2A right of us law-abiding taxpayers in the state?

Hard to make any argument about the HQL other than it being an undue burden on prospective handgun buyers. The murder rate keeps going up. Criminals keep getting put back out on the streets nolle prosequi even on their 5th illegal gun charge. They commit their crimes largely with stolen firearms. It doesn't matter if the guy who they stole it from was an FFL03, and HQL holder, or if he made it.

The people who created this problem will simply take this opportunity to screw us because they want to. I don't think any of them honestly believe what they say about this particular issue.

 

[Sticky]

Hard to make any argument about the HQL other than it being an undue burden on prospective handgun buyers. The murder rate keeps going up. Criminals keep getting put back out on the streets nolle prosequi even on their 5th illegal gun charge. They commit their crimes largely with stolen firearms. It doesn't matter if the guy who they stole it from was an FFL03, and HQL holder, or if he made it.

The people who created this problem will simply take this opportunity to screw us because they want to. I don't think any of them honestly believe what they say about this particular issue.

The system is broken, but the State benefits from it all. It matters not how many innocent peeps are shot/shot at every day in the city, if it did, they would do something. We all know that criminals don't obtain their guns legally, so all of this BS legislation is just more of a burden to those who can actually help deter crime. Sad, indeed, but it doesn't support the agenda.

Okay, just to get back on track of my OP, I think I have my answer, there is no rule of law that limits how many firearms I can build in a given period of time, as an individual, not making my livelihood from this in any way, it was just misinformation that led the person to believe that this was a law.

Thanks to all for your input on this.

 

[Sticky]

Not trying to end the discussion, we can carry on the debate, a bit of diversion on a thread is always fun..

 

[fabsroman]

there's nothing bending over about spending 1 hour of your time and 130 bucks. seriously. it is absurd, but where have you been? the government is beyond absurd. if you aren't willing to do a few things you don't like, you're not going to have much quality of life.

They have bent us over one way or another. You have to spend an additional hour of your time and $130 to get your HQL and I have to spend money on jigs, tools, etc. and my time to avoid getting the HQL.

As far as my quality of life, etc. is concerned, I do a lot of things "I don't like". Seems as the more things I do that "I don't like", the worse my quality of life actually is. Doesn't a good quality of life mean you are doing exactly what you want to do. Stupid grass keeps on growing and the vehicles keep on breaking down and needing maintenance. Not only that, but Windows will not allow me to share folders properly. Now that is impeding my quality of life. Personally, I will enjoy building a 80& handgun. That is a hobby, not a chore. Of course, if you do not own tools, are not handy, etc., then you have to get that HQL just like the Maryland General Assembly and Marin O'Malley commanded.

As far as forcing your opinion on me and convincing me to get fingerprinted, to up my quality of life, LOL - good luck with trying to convince me to do that. Heck, the lawmakers convinced me to buy 6 handguns I probably never would have bought just by saying HQL. Would have probably been content with the single handgun, a HK USP9 Compact. Now, there are handguns all over the house.

 

[Mark75H]

there's nothing bending over about spending 1 hour of your time and 130 bucks. seriously. it is absurd, but where have you been? the government is beyond absurd. if you aren't willing to do a few things you don't like, you're not going to have much quality of life.

4 hours here, 4 hours there, $130 bucks, not so much to you ... let them double it next year and you are still OK with it right?

That's their plan ... if you think this is their end game and its all they have up their sleeves, you are more naive than you think you are. The only way to stop them from piling on year after year - IS TO PUSH BACK - not acquiesce, as you suggest is OK or even right.

 

[Sticky]

4 hours here, 4 hours there, $130 bucks, not so much ... let them double it next year and you are still OK with it right?

That's their plan ... if you think this is their end game and its all they have up their sleeves, you are more naive than you think you are. The only way to stop them from piling on year after year - IS TO PUSH BACK - not acquiesce, as you suggest is OK or even right.

Precisely!

 

[Sticky]

Heck, the lawmakers convinced me to buy 6 handguns I probably never would have bought just by saying HQL. Would have probably been content with the single handgun, a HK USP9 Compact. Now, there are handguns all over the house.

Agreed... Between AR's and handguns, because they told me 'I can't', or 'I have to ... ', I have built more guns than I otherwise would have bought in probably the next 10 years. I may have decided eventually to acquire some of these over time and most likely I would have patronized our LGS's. Alas... MD has created a situation where it is prohibitive for me to do so. This is wrong... fundamentally wrong.

 

[Biggfoot44]

Just let us know which gunstore you work on commission, and we'll bring the doughnuts.

Or which "training" provider or Livescan franchise, and we'll bring the doughnuts.