Black powder revolver question

[TAliyev]

This question has probably been asked before, but while searching this site, I did not find a direct answer, so here it goes...

According to the BATF, black powder guns are not legally considered to be firearms, that is why we are able to buy them from shelves in stores without going through any background checks. Now, if I buy BP revolver from Bass Pro Shop , take it home, load 5 cylinders out of 6 with Pyrodex , lead balls and percussion caps, set it to empty chamber and put it back in my car, would that be legal? Since legally this is not a firearm, I do not need to have a carry license to have it in my car.... Or do I? In my understanding, technically/legally I do not have loaded firearm in my possession, I just have some sort of sporting device, sorta like a bow and arrows. Remember movie 'Weather Man' where Nicolas Cage was walking around New York with his bow/arrows behind his back....

Something does not click in this picture... Can we have loaded BP guns in our cars and not go to jail for that?

 

[Adams74Chevy]

I believe MD DNR laws say you can't have a loaded BP firearm in cars, plus it's a very grey area and definately not worth being the test case. Once loaded I believe it becomes a weapon so it can cause issues in that way as well. Novus will be along soon and have all sorts of law references for ya.

 

[Boondock Saint]

Such high expectations of Novus. I wonder where a number of us would be relative to gun laws without his Google Fu.

 

[Adams74Chevy]

I wonder where a number of us would be without his wisdom.

On the crapper reading law books.

 

[netsurferdude2]

Such high expectations of Novus. I wonder where a number of us would be relative to gun laws without his Google Fu.

In jail for breaking too many laws that we didnt know about?

 

[novus collectus]

This question has probably been asked before, but while searching this site, I did not find a direct answer, so here it goes...

According to the BATF, black powder guns are not legally considered to be firearms, that is why we are able to buy them from shelves in stores without going through any background checks. Now, if I buy BP revolver from Bass Pro Shop , take it home, load 5 cylinders out of 6 with Pyrodex , lead balls and percussion caps, set it to empty chamber and put it back in my car, would that be legal? Since legally this is not a firearm, I do not need to have a carry license to have it in my car.... Or do I? In my understanding, technically/legally I do not have loaded firearm in my possession, I just have some sort of sporting device, sorta like a bow and arrows. Remember movie 'Weather Man' where Nicolas Cage was walking around New York with his bow/arrows behind his back....

Something does not click in this picture... Can we have loaded BP guns in our cars and not go to jail for that?

I believe MD DNR laws say you can't have a loaded BP firearm in cars, plus it's a very grey area and definately not worth being the test case. Once loaded I believe it becomes a weapon so it can cause issues in that way as well. Novus will be along soon and have all sorts of law references for ya.

Adams74Chevy hit the sticking point on your plan. However you are on to something I always wondered as well and it is truly a gray area and by the time I finish this post you will go WTF?!

One, you are correct that a replica of an antique is not a regulated firearm at the state level and it is also not a "firearm" at the federal level (as long as it is not most NFA devices). YOu are also correct that it being a replica of an antique you are not prevented from carrying the handgun loaded under 4-203 handgun possesion/transport law because antiques are excluded from that subtitle under the definitions pertaining to just that subtitle. However, there is a hunting statute for when in or on a vehicle that may apply as was pointed out and there is another possible issue with concealed.....but those are where the gray area comes in.

The hunting statute says you cannot have any handgun (when not transporting according to 4-203), rifle or shotgun loaded when in or on a vehicle and it does not define "handgun, rifle or shotgun" so it does not seemingly exclude antiques and so if the courts say this applies to antiques and antique replicas because it does not exclude antiques from the definition, then this may be a good thing and I will get to that later when talking about the concealed part . However if it applies to antques just the same, then I think it is a 18 month max sentence for having a loaded cap and ball revolver in your car loaded. But this conviction would not prevent you from owning firearms for the rest of your life (a state misdemeanor not more than two years).
The other thing is the definition of loaded. If the cylinder is not in the revolver, then in my non-professional opinion it is not loaded because "the handgun" (i.e. frame) is not loaded. With a 1858 Remington one could load the cylinder in the frame and fire it within two or three seconds which may not be enough to stop a carjacker, but might be enough to stop another crime in progress. I have a strong feeling one would be the test case on this one if caught by a DNR officer at the least.

The part about being an antique not excluding it from the definition of "handgun" in 10-410 of the Natural Resources article (the above hunting statute I was talking about), then that would mean they are not excluded from the definition for handgun excluding handguns from the concealed weapons law (confused yet?).
In the subtitle 4-1 of the criminal law article dealing with "weapons" and which makes the concealed carry of "weapons" illegal, it excludes "handguns" and "penknives" in section 4-101. So in other words, the prohibition on the concealed carry of antique handguns does not seem to illegal the way I read it, but this is a gray area. (antique rifles and shotguns are not excluded, so the concealed carry of antique rifles and shotguns are covered by 4-1).
Now I have strong arguments for this understanding, one is the previous statement about how if antiques are not excluded from "handguns" in the hunting statute, then they are not excluded where "handguns" is not defined in other parts of the code. Also, later in subtitle 4-1 they have to exclude antiques from the definition of handgun specifically when it applies to child access which suggests that if the definition for handgun automatically excluded antiques from the definition, then why did htey have to do so again later in the exact same subtitle? I think one of the recent Maryland Court of Appeals cases (dealing with handguns as a matter of fact) looked at something like this happenning in code and used it to poit out where something is not repeated it.....oooohhh, now my head hurts, I will have to come back to this one.

But in any case, 4-101 does not prohibit the open carry of loaded antique handguns, so if it was in the car and not concealed then it is not illegal for 4-101, but it is likely illegal for 10-410 if loaded....or at the least you will be facing a judge and having to argue your case.

The alternative I found for a car is this, a powerful air pistol or air rifle carried in the car openly because neither 10-410 seems to apply to non-firearms and since it is neither a firearm under 4-203 nor carried concealed which is prohibitted under 4-101, one could theoretically openly carry protection while in a car. However there are three things to consider. The most powerful air pistols that have the power of a low powered self defense firearim are usually single shot, and the powerful multi shot short rifles are possibly to cumbersome to use in a car (but maybe not). The third thing to remember is there is no state preemption on air guns so what might be legal for state law may be illegal for local law. However, that too would not likely carrie any sentence preventing you from owning firearms for the rest of your life because local ordinances are at most 18 months for the most serious offenses IIRC.

Now I won't evev go into the "affirmative defense" and "defense of necessity" arguments.

I am not a lawyer.

The air rifle I was talking about is a 9mm six shot lever action PCN that has about the power of .32 ACP out of a handgun (120 ft/pounds). There is a .50 single shot handgun with even more power that Quackenbush makes. Open carry of both of those items in a car loaded seems to be legal by state law as I see it.

By the way, since antiques are not covered under 4-203 (the handgun transport/possession statute), an antique as a trunk gun unloaded with rounds near it seems perfectly legal as far as state law and not a gray area, but there is no state preemption for antiques either (there is for the ammunition though).

 

[novus collectus]

I can point out the parts in code I am referring to upon request.

 

[TAliyev]

Thank you Novus!

Don't you love those laws?! Even when explained, one cannot get a grip on what is legal and what is not... Gray areas are everywhere.... Everything leaves too much space for free interpretation, and at the end, everything depends on the mood in which judge showed up for the hearing......

If we discard 'hunting' part as inapplicable and just talk about city filled with people carrying loaded replica BP revolvers in their cars, where does it put us? Jail?

It is hard to believe that over the years has not have been a case or two that dealt with this issue....

 

[novus collectus]

There is a Maryland Court of Special Appeals case of a concealed cap and ball revolver an idiot walked into a bank with when cashing a check about 8 or 9 years ago and was charged with carrying a concealed weapon, but here's the catch, that was before they re-wrote the entire MD annotated code in a different format.
In the pre 2002 code the same definition for handgun was used for both the concealed weapons paragraph as well as for the handgun possession transport paragraph (which were basically in the same section or subtitle at the time) and the definition said antiques was not included and then said the concealed weapons part did not apply to handguns. When they changed the law putting the dangerous weapons/concealed weapons in a different subtitle they no longer had the same definitions and the handgun transport/possession subtitle starts off the definition as: "In this subtitle the following words have the meanings indicated" which means that the definition only applies to that subtitle unless another statute references it saying "as defined in subtitle 4-2...". SO since 4-101 does not reference 4-201, the definition in 4-201 would not apply.

Now to confuse things even more about the hunting statute is that although the concealed weapons statute and the handgun statute exempt police officers, the hunting statute does not for rifles and shotguns, so all those police officers in MD driving around with a loaded shotgun in the patrol car are technically breaking the law. This leads to the argument that the hunting statute only applies to when hunting or poaching and not to normal travels.

 

[ezeerider]

So..... how about open carry of an unloaded cap and ball revolver? Loaded cylinders in a pouch on one side of your belt and the unloaded revolver in your holster. Is there a way to test this law with no chance of landing in jail?

 

[BlackBart]

It's not "really" loaded until it has a cap over the nipple. Would it qualify as an inert chunk of metal until that point?

 

[Bigdtc]

Rmember too that according to DNR..."Muzzleloaders are considered unloaded if the ignition system is disabled by removal of the cap, primer, battery, or primer powder."
No need to remove the cylinder, just the caps.

Edit..Bart beat me to it...

 

[kalister1]

Could you be charged with carrying an "Explosive Device"?

 

[Threeband]

Clint Eastwood movies aside, speed-loading a '58 Remington wouldn't go so smoothly in real life.

Also a loaded cylinder would be extremely dangerous to carry around. That thing is bristling with percussion caps. You drop it, and bad things could happen.

If you want to skirt the law, and have quick access to a firearm in your vehicle, I think it would be more realistic to carry an M1A1 carbine with the stock folded, and a magazine seperate, but quickly grabbable.

 

[novus collectus]

Could you be charged with carrying an "Explosive Device"?

I don't think so, or else all cap and ball revolvers would be explosive devices when used for hunting or at the range.

 

[novus collectus]

Rmember too that according to DNR..."Muzzleloaders are considered unloaded if the ignition system is disabled by removal of the cap, primer, battery, or primer powder."
No need to remove the cylinder, just the caps.

Edit..Bart beat me to it...

What DNR states and what the statute states are not necessarily the same. I have heard DNR getting mad at PG police because they were charging hunters who were following DNR guidlines, but I heard this second hand.

 

[ezeerider]

So what could they charge you with for carrying an unloaded cap and ball revolver? Its not considered a firearm. Its not dangerous if its not loaded. I just don't see what charge they could use to lock you up.

 

[novus collectus]

So..... how about open carry of an unloaded cap and ball revolver? Loaded cylinders in a pouch on one side of your belt and the unloaded revolver in your holster. Is there a way to test this law with no chance of landing in jail?

So what could they charge you with for carrying an unloaded cap and ball revolver? Its not considered a firearm. Its not dangerous if its not loaded. I just don't see what charge they could use to lock you up.

I'm sorry, I did not respond to the first quote because I thought you were referring to just in a car and it was too late at night to give an in depth response when I saw it.
If you are not in or on a vehicle (a motor vehicle with wheels as I understand it), then as I understand it you can wear it openly AND loaded depending on local laws (there is a question of if state preemption includes antique revolvers) because there is absolutely no state law against it when not on school property, when not a felon, when not using in a crime of violence and when not carrying with the intent to unlawfully injure.
I am not a lawyer, but the openly carrying of an antique revolver (including most or all cap and ball revolvers) loaded or not does not fall under any state law. It is not prohibitted by 4-203 because it specifically excludes antiques and antique replicas like cap and ball revolvers, and the Weapons statute 4-101 does not prohibit the open carrying of open any weapons not carried with the intent to unlawfully injure.
There is even an exception made for antiques on the prohibition of under 16 access to loaded firearms in the Criminal Law article, and the giving someone under 18 any weapon in the Public Safety article.

Now if in a car and having loaded but separate cylinder, well this is what I surmised..... the hunting statute says no loaded magazines and no round in the chamber in or on a vehicle, but since the cylinder is not a magazine and is not attached to the gun, there is no round in the chamber of the gun because at this point the gun (which is the frame) has no chamber. But as others have pointed out, unless you create some device protecting the caps from being set off by accident, it is dangerous. It might be better to use an actual antique that takes cartridges and use a speed loader. THis is a grey area of law though and you or I could very well be the test case if we ever had to use one in self defense.

I am not a lawyer.

 

[ezeerider]

wow....... my brain is smoking from all this..... why's it gotta be so complicated? I'd like to find someone with a squeaky clean record to test this out. Like someones 80 year old grandmother. If you got enough Marylanders used to seeing open carry and desensitize the public to seeing firearms on the street, maybe we could get more support for a Shall Issue law. Thanks Novus. You are THE man.

 

[kalister1]

Could you be charged with carrying an "Explosive Device"?

I don't think so, or else all cap and ball revolvers would be explosive devices when used for hunting or at the range.

You can carry a loaded 44 mag while deer hunting, you cannot carry the same gun on the street, same as on the range. Getting convicted and getting arrested are two different things.