ATF Coming After Firearms with Stabilizing Braces

[Wayne1one]

Feel free to follow what ever unsubstantiated advice you would like.

I'll live by this standard, so I'll just skip the videos you post.

 

[RRomig]

I keep asking whether applying to make a braced AR pistol into an SBR is in effect waiving your 5th Amendment fight against self-incrimination?

The way the "rule" is written, the item in question is already illegal to possess without a tax stamp. Admitting you have one makes you a felon, and you're documenting that fact.

Am I misunderstanding the situation? Should I just trust the ATF to withhold charging and prosecuting me under these circumstances?

If you’re worried about it take off the brace until you get your stamp. Both days during the webinar they said as long as you have applied your firearm is fine the way it is. There are separate form ones for those that had their braced pistols in their possession by 1/31. I’m of the opinion that if they are already calling it an SBR then it might as well be comfortable to shoot. I only have a few and I’m still weighing out which way to go but that will be a by gun decision not all or nothing. 3 months is time to get it figured out unless of course you go form one and it gets overturned in 12 months. Kinda feels like playing craps.

 

[outrider58]

I believe in constructive intent, more as an add-on charge, etc. But here is my issue with it fundamentally, I have SBRs, I have pistols, I have stocks, and I have rifles. With all of that how can you prove that my stocks will be placed on my pistols versus my SBR or that my braces are for my pistols and not for my 16" rifle? That's my problem as a lot of these parts are interchangeable you would need to prove that my "take-off" stocks and braces that may be sitting in a bin is solely intended to construct an illegal version of a rifle etc.

A great many of us are in the same boat, and I also agree with your assessment of the constructive intent.

Similarly with the hbar in Md. No one is running around to all the ranges with tape measures. But, god forbid, they catch you for mopery with intent to creep and later find out you put a pencil barrel on your 'post' lower...

 

[Bountied]

If you have some threaded pipe and black powder is that constructive intent? You can practically infer constructive intent from a myriad of household items that could be used as explosive devices. From a video I watched earlier the constructive intent law is basically impossible to prove. You'd have to be doing something wrong in the first place to have them consider it. Like if you were selling homemade guns and you had all the stuff to do it they would get you. Kind of like intent to distribute. If you have a bulk bag of drugs they wouldn't say you intended to distribute but if you got caught with a bunch of little bags of drugs after selling some they'd get you with intent to distribute. If you have freeze plugs and a Maglite are you going to make an illegal suppressor? No but you could I suppose.

 

[jcutonilli]

I believe in constructive intent, more as an add-on charge, etc. But here is my issue with it fundamentally, I have SBRs, I have pistols, I have stocks, and I have rifles. With all of that how can you prove that my stocks will be placed on my pistols versus my SBR or that my braces are for my pistols and not for my 16" rifle? That's my problem as a lot of these parts are interchangeable you would need to prove that my "take-off" stocks and braces that may be sitting in a bin is solely intended to construct an illegal version of a rifle etc.

I'll live by this standard, so I'll just skip the videos you post.

Maybe if you watched the videos, you would know the answer

 

[jcutonilli]

If you have some threaded pipe and black powder is that constructive intent? You can practically infer constructive intent from a myriad of household items that could be used as explosive devices. From a video I watched earlier the constructive intent law is basically impossible to prove. You'd have to be doing something wrong in the first place to have them consider it. Like if you were selling homemade guns and you had all the stuff to do it they would get you. Kind of like intent to distribute. If you have a bulk bag of drugs they wouldn't say you intended to distribute but if you got caught with a bunch of little bags of drugs after selling some they'd get you with intent to distribute. If you have freeze plugs and a Maglite are you going to make an illegal suppressor? No but you could I suppose.

If you think the constructive intent law is basically impossible to prove then there is nothing to worry about.

 

[Bountied]

If you think the constructive intent law is basically impossible to prove then there is nothing to worry about.

Yeah I'm not worried. If you own a SBR and any other AR, that could be constructive intent. If they wanted to they could make some argument that you have constructive intent for anything so...

 

[swinokur]

Lawsuit filed in 5th Circuit

 

[Boxcab]

Lawsuit filed in 5th Circuit

We need a few more in other Circuits.



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[outrider58]

We need a few more in other Circuits.



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They're coming.

 

[jcutonilli]

Lawsuit filed in 5th Circuit

We need a few more in other Circuits.
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Sent from my SM-G781U using Tapatalk

They're coming.

Apparently there are at least four lawsuits filed over the final rule. Three of them are in the Northern District of Texas and one in the Eastern District of Texas.

Apparently another one has been filed in the Middle district of Florida.

 

[Allen65]

We need a few more in other Circuits.



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5th is a 2A friendly circuit. Let them develop persuasive arguments, and maybe even circuit precedent, that can then be used persuasively in other Appellate circuits. DoJ actively judge shops, exemplified by their going after 80% manufacturers from a Brooklyn courtroom, so it's only fair that our side goes shopping, too.

 

[TinCuda]

The 5th circuit will go our way, the 9th will rule against us. That's our route to the US Supreme Court and with a little luck, this whole mess will be over.

 

[1841DNG]

I'd probably leave a lower with a smooth pistol tube hanging out if I had any guns. All this talk of constructive intent is fun and all (I have always hated it) but I bet you that the number of ATF agents who will pop your pistol upper on a rifle lower and claim to have found it that way is non-zero. Anyone enforcing this is already unethical even though I am not saying it would be common.

Waving the engraving is nice (though like the tax I still don't know how they are allowed to do that) outside of people buying something amnesty registered without knowing it. However if I can't go get a trust set up now and would have the pay $200 anyway I don't see the point. And I worry for people who bought factory braced items on a 77R.

 

[ddestruel]

Would the SC tolerate a $200 tax on a stun gun, or $150 HiPoint? I think that's the big question.

Heller outright said that MGs and SBSs aren't protected, but in Bruen those aren't mentioned in the majority and Miller is mentioned as protecting items in common use while other paragraphs require a historical analysis of laws.

But Kavanaugh's concurrence is now the last great hope the antis have latched onto, replacing the Heller dissents...

Ive always wondered this, as well if there are 630k fully automatic arms in private law abiding hands why then are the rest of the law abiding civilians denied the opportunity to pay the tax and secure a fully automatic if they so choose?

There might be more fully automatic weapons in private hands than some other devices that are also legal.

question to court at some point might have to be if FA's are legal and the government is refusing to accept any additional tax but yet is picking favorites with the other 630k citizens isnt that an equal protection question? So its legal for some but not legal for others..???? LOL the circular web they have woven

 

[alucard0822]

Was planning on getting free stamps for a couple I was going to SBR anyway, or braced 22s that I didn't want to spend $200 for a stamp.
Already have SBRs, so all the travel stuff and paperwork thing is not a problem, already doing my part to fund SAF and FPC lawsuits as a member. The only thing outside of normal Form 1 stuff is a close-up picture of the serial# engraving, and nothing else.

The one thing that makes me nervous is the clear 5A violation on page 1 of the Eforms page for a "free" F1, when logging in to register, you have to certify 3 things to proceed, basically admitting under penalty of perjury that you are in possession of an unregistered SBR that "meets the definition of a rifle", and has a barrel under 16".

Pursuant to ATF Final Rule 2021R-08F, the Attorney General has authorized certain persons tax-exempt registration of firearms they own or possess at the publication of the rule that are: 1) equipped with a stabilizing brace; 2) meet the definition of "rifle" under federal law; and 3) have a barrel or barrels less than sixteen (16) inches in length.

By proceeding with this application, you are certifying that you and the firearm you intend to register meet the tax-exempt parameters set forth in ATF Final Rule 2021R-08F. Please click here if you have any questions whether you and the firearm you intend to register qualify for tax-exempt registration.

I agree

If I click the boxes, I admit to a current violation in hopes .gov won't pursue me with the evidence they want me to hand them. If I click these, ATF shows up, and I pulled the brace or reconfigured to a non-NFA firearm before the final rule went into effect, then I lied on the form, and perjured myself to save $200 as those 3 criteria are required to get the $200 waived. My other SBRs started out as braced pistols or lowers, I applied, I got my stamp, I swapped the braces for a stock after that came through. No way this passes constitutional muster outside of the whole 2A argument and everything else about the rule to begin with. Of course this whole thing is defacto proof the ATF can change their "interpretation" at any time for any reason, including their statements that they will not prosecute unregistered SBRs until after the 120 days. Either way, going to wait a month or so and see what happens, and keep kicking 2A orgs money when I can so hopefully this goes away entirely.

There is also the fact that the braces are not only on rifle/pistol cal "handguns", and the rule basically declares them SBRs. There are also a lot of "non-NFA firearms" around, smooth bore, over 26", designed for 1 hand with a brace like Rem tac 13/14 with SB braces and pistol grips. The rule doesn't seem to affect these, and you cannot get a free form 1 for your SBS-ish "braced non-nfa firearms"

 

[Alea Jacta Est]

Send bachelors

 

[alucard0822]

So, sent a pair of free Eform 1s, will see how that turns out, one is an 80%, EFT prints and did not give serial# photos, (I engraved the 80% so it's legal to form 1). If all goes well might do more, basically stuff I wanted to SBR anyway. Hopefully it's free stamps, and when the lawsuit goes through if braces are back to status quo, then they will be non-nfa pistols as configured at that point. Sent some loot to FPC to help funs the suits, and to SAF for one of particular interest in CT. That lawsuit was to overturn the AWB after Bruin, but being the way around it was to register ARs with a brace and barrel over 12" as "other", now they are unlawful with no recourse, so they are granted emergency hearings, and requested an emergency injunction. Not far off from MD's 29" OAL / SBR ban, and may have implications to end MD's AWB, although CT is 2nd circuit, MD is 4th.

 

[Bountied]

Nothing I have is close to 29" FML. Guess they will identify as pistols with a buffer tube only. I don't want to spend money to try to make things longer so it is what it is. Now I have two kinds of guns, the ones I can shoot in public and the one's I shoot on private land. YAY!

 

[Doctor_M]

Nothing I have is close to 29" FML. Guess they will identify as pistols with a buffer tube only. I don't want to spend money to try to make things longer so it is what it is. Now I have two kinds of guns, the ones I can shoot in public and the one's I shoot on private land. YAY!

Three types of guns for you and me,
The first at the range for all to see,
The second class kept to myself and to my kin,
Since others may view them as some sort of sin.
The last group are resting deep in the bay,
At least until our uprising day.