ATF Coming After Firearms with Stabilizing Braces

[Combloc]

jkeys, LMFAO. Not THAT's funny!!!!

 

[Combloc]

Wrong. Take an SBR upper off an AR lower renders that lower no longer an NFA item. No matter whether the receiver is engraved or not. You can also put a shorter barreled upper on an SBR once it has been removed from this state as long as a form 20 was filed.

So, you're saying I can take the stock off of an SBR MP5 and take it across state lines legally with no form 20? Show me the letter saying this is so. Then I'll believe it.

 

[outrider58]

So, you're saying I can take the stock off of an SBR MP5 and take it across state lines legally with no form 20? Show me the letter saying this is so. Then I'll believe it.

Reread what I wrote... as long as a form 20 was filed.

 

[Combloc]

No, I read it. I don't own any AR SBR stuff so I couldn't care less about that. I don't know anything about that and I don't need to know about that.
What I do know is that I can't take the stock off a registered MP5 SBR and transport it across state lines without filing the Form 20, stock or no stock in place.

 

[outrider58]

No, I read it. I don't own any AR SBR stuff so I couldn't care less about that. I don't know anything about that and I don't need to know about that.
What I do know is that I can't take the stock off a registered MP5 SBR and transport it across state lines without filing the Form 20, stock or no stock in place.

My point was, if you removed the part of an SBR that makes it an SBR, it will cease to be an SBR at that time. No matter what make of gun it is. You want to sit here and laugh an disrespect people, that's all on you. You are intelligent enough to be able to figure out what I wrote.

 

[Combloc]

Every NFA lawyer website I've referenced online says otherwise and makes no mention of any such loophole. In the NFA Handbook, they specifically use the phrases "eliminated or modified" and "removed and disposed of". The inclusion of those phrases is not an accident. Nowhere does it say simply "removed". Again, you'd have to show me, in writing on ATF letterhead, specifically saying it's legal to remove the SBR feature to get around filing a Form 20 for interstate transport only to make it an SBR again once you come home and reinstall the feature. Otherwise, it's just conjecture to me and I'm sure you'd lose that one in court.

 

[smdub]

I think its been well demonstrated you don't know as much about the NFA as you think/write.

If you bought an MP5 as a pistol, registered it as a SBR, added a stock in your home state once approved, then remove the stock, it is again a pistol and can be taken anywhere the pistol is legal. No form 20s required. The ATF has been clear on this for ages. There are letters out there. It used to be on the website QA but I can't find it w/ all the 'brace' stuff cluttering the search.

If you bought the MP5 as a rifle (HK94), registered it as a SBR, cut down/replaced the barrel in your home state once approved, you can not remove the stock to convert it to a pistol. (One can not convert a firearm originally sold as a rifle to a pistol.) You'd have to put a long barrel in it again to transport is as a rifle w/o a Form 20.

 

[Combloc]

Correct, you can convert your previous pistol, now an SBR, back into a pistol and it is no longer an NFA item. I'm not arguing that. And I will happily admit I'm wrong about what I AM arguing when the letter is presented saying you can change your SBR into a pistol and back into an SBR again at will when you get home so that you can get around filing a Form 20 for interstate transport.

 

[outrider58]

Every NFA lawyer website I've referenced online says otherwise and makes no mention of any such loophole. In the NFA Handbook, they specifically use the phrases "eliminated or modified" and "removed and disposed of". The inclusion of those phrases is not an accident. Nowhere does it say simply "removed". Again, you'd have to show me, in writing on ATF letterhead, specifically saying it's legal to remove the SBR feature to get around filing a Form 20 for interstate transport only to make it an SBR again once you come home and reinstall the feature. Otherwise, it's just conjecture to me and I'm sure you'd lose that one in court.

No, you cannot unmake an SBR and go out of state and make it an SBR again. You have to do a form 20 to take an SBR out of state. You can put a smaller than Md legal barrel on that SBR, once you've left Md. You are confusing 3 different posts to make your point, which defies logic.
What jkeys said, and what started this cf was, you can take an AR9(for instance), remove the stock, and take it to another state WITHOUT a form 20. Why/how? Because it would be considered pistol. Once removed from your home state as a pistol, without a form 20, it will have to remain a pistol until it comes back to your home state. At that point, it can remain a pistol or, be reconverted back to being an SBR.
It was much easier when all you had to do was take a stock off your SBR, put a brace on it, take it to another state, and shoot it as a "pistol". Which what started this whole discussion.

 

[outrider58]

And ATF[sic] letters are not law. They are opinions of guidance from the alphabet soup. They often change throughout time.

 

[outrider58]

I think its been well demonstrated you don't know as much about the NFA as you think/write.

If you bought an MP5 as a pistol, registered it as a SBR, added a stock in your home state once approved, then remove the stock, it is again a pistol and can be taken anywhere the pistol is legal. No form 20s required. The ATF has been clear on this for ages. There are letters out there. It used to be on the website QA but I can't find it w/ all the 'brace' stuff cluttering the search.

If you bought the MP5 as a rifle (HK94), registered it as a SBR, cut down/replaced the barrel in your home state once approved, you can not remove the stock to convert it to a pistol. (One can not convert a firearm originally sold as a rifle to a pistol.) You'd have to put a long barrel in it again to transport is as a rifle w/o a Form 20.

 

[Worsley]

Bottom line, the whole NFA definition of an SBR has been rendered unenforceable by the 30 million braces in circulation without any increase in the types of crimes the NFA act was trying to prevent.

 

[Combloc]

Now that, I completely agree with.

 

[outrider58]

Bottom line, the whole NFA definition of an SBR has been rendered unenforceable by the 30 million braces in circulation without any increase in the types of crimes the NFA act was trying to prevent.

Yes. Once pistols were removed from the NFA, the entire 'act' became a farce.

 

[CrawfishStu]

What do you need to prove that a lower is owned by your trust prior to the deadline?

 

[outrider58]

What do you need to prove that a lower is owned by your trust prior to the deadline?

Serial number?

 

[alucard0822]

Yes, in the NFA handbook, used to be on the ATF's FAQ questions

ATF NFA handbook

An NFA regulated firearm is only subject to the NFA rules when configured as such. Add a long barrel, or take off the stock(previously could add a brace, but not since the rule change), and it's "converted" to a pistol or rifle for transport purposes. You can't convert it back to an NFA item without a form 20 or until you return to your home state. In some cases selling with a 16" barrel, and it's basically just a transfer, and doesn't require a form 4, sell with the short barrel, and a form 4 is required.

That is the silver lining to all this BS. Register your braced pistol as an NFA item for free, no engraving needed. Once the stamp comes back approved, and if legal in your state, slap a stock on it. Take the stock/brace off, or slap a 16" barrel on it, and no longer treated as an NFA item. If there is an injunction on the rule, then basically anyone that bought a braced pistol, registered with the amnesty/free F1, and left it as-is with a brace now have a firearm treated as a pistol, but with the ability to slap a stock on it if they wish.

I think its been well demonstrated you don't know as much about the NFA as you think/write.

If you bought an MP5 as a pistol, registered it as a SBR, added a stock in your home state once approved, then remove the stock, it is again a pistol and can be taken anywhere the pistol is legal. No form 20s required. The ATF has been clear on this for ages. There are letters out there. It used to be on the website QA but I can't find it w/ all the 'brace' stuff cluttering the search.

If you bought the MP5 as a rifle (HK94), registered it as a SBR, cut down/replaced the barrel in your home state once approved, you can not remove the stock to convert it to a pistol. (One can not convert a firearm originally sold as a rifle to a pistol.) You'd have to put a long barrel in it again to transport is as a rifle w/o a Form 20.

No, you cannot unmake an SBR and go out of state and make it an SBR again. You have to do a form 20 to take an SBR out of state. You can put a smaller than Md legal barrel on that SBR, once you've left Md. You are confusing 3 different posts to make your point, which defies logic.
What jkeys said, and what started this cf was, you can take an AR9(for instance), remove the stock, and take it to another state WITHOUT a form 20. Why/how? Because it would be considered pistol. Once removed from your home state as a pistol, without a form 20, it will have to remain a pistol until it comes back to your home state. At that point, it can remain a pistol or, be reconverted back to being an SBR.
It was much easier when all you had to do was take a stock off your SBR, put a brace on it, take it to another state, and shoot it as a "pistol". Which what started this whole discussion.

 

[Kharn]

 

[Kharn]

Texas, GOA, etc v BATFe motion for preliminary injunction

 

[CrawfishStu]

Serial number?

Prior to MD making face to face transfers a regulated transaction, someone could have purchased a rifle and later transferred ownership to their NFA trust. Correct? There really wouldn't be any paperwork on that except the rifle being added to the trust's schedule A.