ATF Agent Allows MD Dealer to Release Guns after 30 days

[A1Uni]

Want an answer?

That is painfully easy.

State Law-FFLs, may release after 7 business days if the State Police have not sent a disapproved response.

Federal Law-The ATF requires that a NICS check be done by licensed dealers on all firearms transfers.

That check is recorded on a 4473, which calls for a NICS number. In Maryland dealers can neither run handguns online nor over the phone as the State Police are the point of contact for (POC) those checks.

Dead simple.

The complicated part is insurance regulations and general liability, that is all.

Those out there who say "if the FFL obeys the law he is protected, there is no liability," have never run a business and have no idea what they are talking about.

One frivolous lawsuit would likely bankrupt most dealers.

Therein lies the problem, and that is why your guns are, much to our dismay, parked in our safes for months on end.

If the state would relent and let dealers be the POC for handguns the backlog would be cleared in a matter of days and they could spend their time gearing up for the October buffoonery.


Back on topic-

The ATF makes no rulings on wait times for the release of guns. The ATF does not have the authority to cancel, override or otherwise nullify any state laws. 30 days is a meaningless number except with regard to the expiration of NICS check numbers and/or the 30 day regulated purchase limits for non designated collectors in MD.

 

[fabsroman]

Yeah I get that I just think that the FFL's would like nothing better than for you to take your purchased gun off their hands as soon as possible. They don't gain anything by hanging onto your gun and making you mad. They do stand to lose A LOT though if they screw up and release something just because everyone's ticked off. It amazes me that we're this far down the road with this thing and there still doesn't seem to be a honest gospel answer to what they can or cannot do.

If anybody has the funding to hire an attorney, or an entire law firm for that matter, and deal with this issue, it would be Outdoor World (a/k/a Bass Pro Shop, RedHead). If nothing else, that huge company, for the sake of customer relations, should have gotten to the bottom of this long ago. If nothing else, it should be releasing on the 8th day and taking out additional liability insurance if there even is a chance of additional liability on its part for releasing these firearms AFTER a NICS check has been done and it has waited the 8 days for MSP to do the paperwork. Ironically, I was over there tonight to buy a pink and purple tacklebox for my daughter and look at boats and the handgun shelves were rather empty.

If anything, one would think the MSP and the Governor, the ones ultimately responsible for public safety, would be working their fingers to the bone to make sure these checks came back within 7 days to make sure none of these firearms fell into the wrong hands and resulted in another "Newtown" here in Maryland should FFL's decide to follow the letter of the law as it is in black and white. The same black and white that the MSP and Governor will gladly throw us in jail for if we do not follow it. If nothing else, at least they would provide FFL's with a number for a NICS check prior to the 8th day so that at least something has been done, even though the morons are now stuck in a situation because the NICS information for Maryland is not really entered into the system. They created this mess, they need to fix it and pronto as they continue to create a bigger mess up the road.

When government (e.g., Governor, law enforcement, legislature, courts) is above the law, that is when trouble starts to brew.

 

[Jaybeez]

30 days is 30 days too long.

 

[Threeband]

...
The ATF makes no rulings on wait times for the release of guns. The ATF does not have the authority to cancel, override or otherwise nullify any state laws. 30 days is a meaningless number except with regard to the expiration of NICS check numbers and/or the 30 day regulated purchase limits for non designated collectors in MD.

ATF is Federal, and has no authority in State matters.

.

This story just doesn't make sense to me.

Maybe it was just an impostor in an ATF tee shirt, as was suggested in another post.

 

[fabsroman]

Want an answer?

That is painfully easy.

State Law-FFLs, may release after 7 business days if the State Police have not sent a disapproved response.

Federal Law-The ATF requires that a NICS check be done by licensed dealers on all firearms transfers.

That check is recorded on a 4473, which calls for a NICS number. In Maryland dealers can neither run handguns online nor over the phone as the State Police are the point of contact for (POC) those checks.

Dead simple.

The complicated part is insurance regulations and general liability, that is all.

Those out there who say "if the FFL obeys the law he is protected, there is no liability," have never run a business and have no idea what they are talking about.

One frivolous lawsuit would likely bankrupt most dealers.

Therein lies the problem, and that is why your guns are, much to our dismay, parked in our safes for months on end.

If the state would relent and let dealers be the POC for handguns the backlog would be cleared in a matter of days and they could spend their time gearing up for the October buffoonery.


Back on topic-

The ATF makes no rulings on wait times for the release of guns. The ATF does not have the authority to cancel, override or otherwise nullify any state laws. 30 days is a meaningless number except with regard to the expiration of NICS check numbers and/or the 30 day regulated purchase limits for non designated collectors in MD.

A general liability insurance policy usually covers the cost of litigation up to the coverage amount. If it is indeed a frivolous lawsuit, the attorney bringing the case would be subject to sanctions, including disbarment. Not only that, but if it is frivolous a good attorney should be able to get it dismissed before it even gets to trial, unless of course said attorney wants to milk it for all it is worth fee wise (which is sad).

Might there be a reason why the state is NOT relenting and allowing the dealers to be the point of contact for the NICS check? Might it be that information entered into NICS by the State of Maryland has not been adequate over the last 10 years? Is the State of Maryland required by federal law to maintain the data in NICS as it pertains to data in Maryland? Might it be that the 17 databases at MSP are now the main source of info for everything? Otherwise, what the heck is the use of the 17 databases when a simple NICS check would work?

There are way more questions than answers at this point, and there are a lot of half truths and speculation out there. If the MSI case ever gets heated up, I might have to be present for witness testimony so I can get a grasp on all the BS that has been going on the past decade.

 

[silanehead]

"ATF is Federal, and has no authority in State matters."
I agree.
As much as I would like to receive my 3 regulated purchases before the end of July, no way am I going to back the Feds stepping on state laws.
In other areas that is a sword that could cut both ways.

 

[Tacticalglobe]

I don't believe any story that comes out of that DIVE.
Should be condemned.

Sad part is I bought from them in the past.

 

[Ab_Normal]

Federal Law-The ATF requires that a NICS check be done by licensed dealers on all firearms transfers.

Not quite true. Federal law only requires that a NICS check be initiated by FFL holders. If there is no NICS disposition after 3 days of the initial inquiry then the firearm may be transferred by the dealer. The feds do recognize that states may have longer wait time requirements but 3 days is the maximum wait time at the federal level without a DENIED response.

 

[aireyc]

Not quite true. Federal law only requires that a NICS check be initiated by FFL holders. If there is no NICS disposition after 3 days of the initial inquiry then the firearm may be transferred by the dealer. The feds do recognize that states may have longer wait time requirements but 3 days is the maximum wait time at the federal level without a DENIED response.

I've been spending a lot of time reading over the actual laws, FFL manuals, reference guides, etc. Found this nice tidbit from http://www.atf.gov/files/publications/download/p/atf-p-5300-4.pdf on page 194:

(P41) What should licensees do if no transaction number is provided? The FBI’s NICS Operations Center will always provide a transaction number at the time of the initial inquiry. Some State points of contact (POC) may not provide a transaction number for denied transactions. If a State POC does not provide a transaction number for a denied transaction, then the licensee should just record the response without a transaction number. Licensees should note, however, that a transaction number is required if a “proceed” response is issued and the firearm is being transferred within 3 business days of the initiation of a NICS check.

According to that, the NTN is only required on the 4473 if you proceed within 3 business days. Also, since everyone says the ATF website can change, I found the following on page 196 of the reference guide. This has been quoted before, but just to re-state:

(P57) If a State is acting as a NICS point of contact (POC) and State law has requirements regarding the amount of time that a licensee must wait before transferring a firearm after contacting the State, should the licensee comply with the State requirements, the Federal requirements, or both? The licensee must comply with both State and Federal requirements.

Example:
State D is acting as a POC for NICS checks. State law requires a background check prior to the transfer of any firearm. State law also requires the licensee to wait 10 days to get a response from the State. The licensee must contact the State POC for a NICS check and a State background check. The licensee must comply with both Federal and State law by waiting 10 days for a response prior to transferring the firearm. If the licensee has not received a response from the State after 10 days, he or she may transfer the firearm.

I should also add that an NICS check is not even required for firearms transfers in states where a valid carry permit is accepted in lieu of a background check. Unfortunately, Maryland's carry permit does not apply. http://www.atf.gov/firearms/brady-law/permit-chart.html

 

[ianmcall]

Not quite true. Federal law only requires that a NICS check be initiated by FFL holders. If there is no NICS disposition after 3 days of the initial inquiry then the firearm may be transferred by the dealer. The feds do recognize that states may have longer wait time requirements but 3 days is the maximum wait time at the federal level without a DENIED response.

But isn't the catch that NICS gives a number when the check is initiated..?

 

[Ab_Normal]

But isn't the catch that NICS gives a number when the check is initiated..?

Only when the FFL is required to contact the NICS as their POC. If the FFL is required to contact another agency designated as the POC then maybe (as it is in Pa.) or maybe not (as it is in Md.).

See the post above yours for more FACTUAL info.

There have been a lot of misinformed opinions put out as fact on these subjects. My suggestion is to go with what is officially documented and verifiable.

 

[A1Uni]

Not quite true. Federal law only requires that a NICS check be initiated by FFL holders. If there is no NICS disposition after 3 days of the initial inquiry then the firearm may be transferred by the dealer. The feds do recognize that states may have longer wait time requirements but 3 days is the maximum wait time at the federal level without a DENIED response.

No, you misunderstand.

The NICS number needed to prove a check was initiated and to complete the 4473 is created and provided (if you do your checks online) as soon as the check is entered. Even if you don't get a reply, you do still have the number to verify the attempt.

On denials it really does not matter as no transfer took place, and so if the POC does not supply a NICS on those there is no issue.

You are correct inasmuch as you don't have to have a "Proceed" to release.

Yes, after 3 days a dealer may release, if they want to, but not without a NICS number.

 

[iH8DemLibz]

For what it's worth, I just spoke with the Bass Pro firearms manager. He told me that B-P Corporate has been round and round with the MSP.

Storage issues, Insurance issues, Etc...

For those who believe in K.I.S.S., the short answer is: No Way Jose!!!

90 Days at Bass so we take it up the A**!!!

 

[A1Uni]

A general liability insurance policy usually covers the cost of litigation up to the coverage amount. If it is indeed a frivolous lawsuit, the attorney bringing the case would be subject to sanctions, including disbarment. Not only that, but if it is frivolous a good attorney should be able to get it dismissed before it even gets to trial, unless of course said attorney wants to milk it for all it is worth fee wise (which is sad).

Might there be a reason why the state is NOT relenting and allowing the dealers to be the point of contact for the NICS check? Might it be that information entered into NICS by the State of Maryland has not been adequate over the last 10 years? Is the State of Maryland required by federal law to maintain the data in NICS as it pertains to data in Maryland? Might it be that the 17 databases at MSP are now the main source of info for everything? Otherwise, what the heck is the use of the 17 databases when a simple NICS check would work?

There are way more questions than answers at this point, and there are a lot of half truths and speculation out there. If the MSI case ever gets heated up, I might have to be present for witness testimony so I can get a grasp on all the BS that has been going on the past decade.

If legal fees are the only costs involved, insurance coverage would be enough, but in the real world it is not.

 

[nobis1]

No, you misunderstand.

The NICS number needed to prove a check was initiated and to complete the 4473 is created and provided (if you do your checks online) as soon as the check is entered. Even if you don't get a reply, you do still have the number to verify the attempt.

On denials it really does not matter as no transfer took place, and so if the POC does not supply a NICS on those there is no issue.

You are correct inasmuch as you don't have to have a "Proceed" to release.

Yes, after 3 days a dealer may release, if they want to, but not without a NICS number.

So, just so I understand. MSP can also fix this by running an NCIS check as soon as they receive a firearms application and providing that number to the FFL on the 7th day even if their standard protocal of background research is not done?

 

[Ab_Normal]

No, you misunderstand.

The NICS number needed to prove a check was initiated and to complete the 4473 is created and provided (if you do your checks online) as soon as the check is entered. Even if you don't get a reply, you do still have the number to verify the attempt.

On denials it really does not matter as no transfer took place, and so if the POC does not supply a NICS on those there is no issue.

You are correct inasmuch as you don't have to have a "Proceed" to release.

Yes, after 3 days a dealer may release, if they want to, but not without a NICS number.

No NTN is required if your POC is other than the NICS. The NICS provides the number before the disposition determination. MSP may only provide the number after the disposition determination. 21b on the 4473 states: The NICS or State transaction number (if provided) was:

Hypothetically there wouldn't need to be a NTN if the NICS was down for more than 3 days.

 

[04RWon]

Federal Law-The ATF requires that a NICS check be done by licensed dealers on all firearms transfers.

That check is recorded on a 4473, which calls for a NICS number. In Maryland dealers can neither run handguns online nor over the phone as the State Police are the point of contact for (POC) those checks.

Dead simple.

Im sorry, i know its your buisness, and your lifeline however that statement is wrong. 110% wrong. I and many others have posted the information. I have posted the ATF agents phone number that gave me the info. Federal law requires 3 days. Maryland is 7. Therefore if you are in compliance with MD, you are automatically in compliance with Federal. The agent explained it to me. Its on the ATF site. Id assume its on the FBI's site that has to do with NICS. Its even on the paperwork. The agent told me FFL's should know this because it is part of their job. He was a specialist in this department. Bottom line the NICS number is NOT required after 3 days. In MD we wait 7 so its automatically in compliance.


Ab explained it much better than I did.


MSP is the POC for Md ffls. By sending the paperwork, they are initiating the check. After 3 days, no response, you are in compliance with Fed law. After 7, you are in compliance with MD. No nics number required.

 

[photoracer]

30 days is 22 days overdue. Pick different FFLs if you're waiting that long.

Hardly any Md FFL is willing to release them early since its their livelyhood they could effect. Most would rather err on the side of staying in business since they don't know what the MSP could do.
The MSP does not do the NICS until the state part is done. So therefore most of the wait is for the state personnel to catch up on the backlog. But still the NICS part is not done until they have satisfied the MD part. So most of the 60 day wait is spent sitting in the MSP inbox waiting for someone to get to it. In a 60 day wait the NICS number is not generated until at least the 45-50 day point, if then. So dealers giving them out early could be viloating the letter of the MD law. Which is why most are leery of releasing them after a short period of time. While MD can't do anything about their FFL license they could deny them a permit to operate in the state of MD.

 

[Whitty Whit]

Yes, after 3 days a dealer may release, if they want to, but not without a NICS number.

Are the rules on this different in other states. buddy of mine bought a m&p in VA and they said even if the check took longer 3 days, he would still get the gun , without a nics.

 

[GTOGUNNER]

Im sorry, i know its your buisness, and your lifeline however that statement is wrong. 110% wrong. I and many others have posted the information. I have posted the ATF agents phone number that gave me the info. Federal law requires 3 days. Maryland is 7. Therefore if you are in compliance with MD, you are automatically in compliance with Federal. The agent explained it to me. Its on the ATF site. Id assume its on the FBI's site that has to do with NICS. Its even on the paperwork. The agent told me FFL's should know this because it is part of their job. He was a specialist in this department. Bottom line the NICS number is NOT required after 3 days. In MD we wait 7 so its automatically in compliance.


Ab explained it much better than I did.


MSP is the POC for Md ffls. By sending the paperwork, they are initiating the check. After 3 days, no response, you are in compliance with Fed law. After 7, you are in compliance with MD. No nics number required.

Here we go again..

I wonder if FFLs read their Insurance Polices like they read Federal and State Law.