Any one CC with empty chamber?

[Blaster229]

Whenever the mention of feelings driving behavior arises I am reminded of something I was taught many decades ago, rightly or wrongly so, (I'll leave that to experts to advise), that people who do brave things are usually quite fearful, but they had learned to power through their fear rather than allow it to limit them.

This is true. And then you realize that you worried about something for no reason.

 

[E.Shell]

I agree with you plenty, I just don't show it.

For some reason, and I don't know why, but many think everything "Israeli" is the gold standard. Not sure why.
My only experience with "Israeli" were the air marshals and the airport security agents. They are shit hot and don't carry empty.
Oh, another "Israeli best" to me, is the fruit. Every time I was there I couldn't get enough. Truth be told it probably came in from Lebanon.

I think it's because that's the only possible rationalization they can find to justify their reaction to fear of their equipment, even though the Israelis' reasoning and military situations are FAR removed from civilian defensive carry.

Like comparing golf balls to eggs, but it makes them feel like they have a valid reason. Fvck logic.

 

[Biggfoot44]

Ohh Ohhh Ohhh ( in Arnold Horshack voice raising hand )

I know how to carry with empty chamber under the firing pin , and still be able to do rapid first shot hit . From retention . One handed . With bent elbow !!


With a Revolver .

 

[Huckleberry]

Ohh Ohhh Ohhh ( in Arnold Horshack voice raising hand )

I know how to carry with empty chamber under the firing pin , and still be able to do rapid first shot hit . From retention . One handed . With bent elbow !!


With a Revolver .

Bob Munden Approves

Jerry Miculek laughs in "Ed McGivern"

 

[cobra]

Jelly Bryce disapproves of this thread

 

[TonyP]

Nope... the prevailing theory is that the Israeli carry method was adopted by Israeli forces early on because they didn't know enough about the guns they were going to carry.

Specifically, in the early days Israeli forces carried whatever they could get... revolvers, 1911's, Lugers, High Powers, etc. Empty chamber was a response to needing to train a standard carry method for a variety of firearm types. A catch-all solution to non standard and in some cases worn out surplus firearms.



In addition to all of the comments about time, you have to consider that you may be warding off an attacker with one hand while drawing with the other. How will you chamber a round?

The Theory And Practice Of Israeli Carry

Let's look at what Israeli Carry is, why it was originally taught to special forces and why many instructors consider the practice outdated today.

www.ammoman.com

The first theory is that they adopted this technique for safety reasons. For the first few years of the IDF’s existence, its equipment was mainly cast-off equipment from both sides of WWII. This led to the IDF having to integrate a wide variety of pistols into service. This, in turn, led to having to train troops how to use different pistols. These pistols may not always employ the same method of operation. Instructors believed standardizing on Condition Three carry was one way for the IDF to eliminate the confusion of training for various safeties and firearms functionality.

The second theory behind the origin of Israeli carry is related to the guns that the IDF inherited from the combatants of WWII. For the first few years of its existence, the IDF did not have state of the art equipment. Rather, it used the gear that everyone else had declared surplus, and some of it was probably in questionable condition. If you’re not sure that the safety on your pistol actually works, (and there are no other pistols to be had at that moment), Condition Three carry makes a lot of sense. The theory is that the IDF started out with Condition Three carry for safety’s sake. Now, bureaucratic inertia keeps it going to this day.

After researching for this article, I think there might be a third reason why Israeli carry came to be. I mentioned Skyes and Fairbairn’s ground-breaking work with the Shanghai police force. However, their work during World War II also had a lasting impression on firearms training. Their ideas and training methodology were used by the Allies’ elite commando groups, so much so that the fighting knife they designed, the Sykes-Fairbairn dagger, has become the symbol of elite units on both sides of the Atlantic. Their training included the idea that they carry a semi-automatic pistol in Condition Three. Experts considered this the best training available at the time. As such, it made sense that the newly-formed nation of Israel would look to their techniques to form the basis of their new military. They continue to teach many of those techniques to this day.

These are out-of-date techniques that, quite frankly, we shouldn’t use anymore.

Thank you for detailing the history of this. Perspective is important in this discussion. I also agree with your conclusion.

 

[Blaster229]

Posting. Just because.

 

[Art3]

I looked this up to shitpost on something else...but it sure seems to fit the thread title:

 

[md77]

No

 

[faimmel]

Cons? Death by being late to your own shootout.

My practice? Always one in the chamber.
Why? Because I can’t put two in the chamber.

Good answer!

 

[Sunrise]

 

[Bullfrog]

Posting. Just because.

Post is empty
Without purpose, meaningless
Like OP's chamber

 

[HarwoodBob38]

I'm an old guy. Lots of military and other weapons training over 35+ years, and still not an expert. But I gotta tell you, all this conversation about being able to draw down on someone in a fraction of a second, or losing a whole second to rack, worries me. The consistent presumption is that you walked into a surprise gun fight without a seconds warning. The worry is that you had such a total lack of situational awareness. That's a problem in (IMHO) a vast majority of instances. Situations don't just explode in your face with no warning. Either there is plenty of latent risk going in, or it develops. All of which you should be anticipating. Not just waiting for last non-second to posture and prepare. It seems to me that a round in the pipe is not your first issue of safety ... but I'm not selling guns, holsters or training.

 

[Doc TH]

Hello and welcome to the board. I can tell you that we toss this around every few months and it's universally considered a bad idea.

Yes, and rightly so. This empty chamber practice also seems to imply that DA revolvers - which always have a round in the cylinder/chamber - are inherently unsafe, which history has shown to be untrue.

 

[Sunrise]

No.

Same guy:

 

[md77]

I'm an old guy. Lots of military and other weapons training over 35+ years, and still not an expert. But I gotta tell you, all this conversation about being able to draw down on someone in a fraction of a second, or losing a whole second to rack, worries me. The consistent presumption is that you walked into a surprise gun fight without a seconds warning. The worry is that you had such a total lack of situational awareness. That's a problem in (IMHO) a vast majority of instances. Situations don't just explode in your face with no warning. Either there is plenty of latent risk going in, or it develops. All of which you should be anticipating. Not just waiting for last non-second to posture and prepare. It seems to me that a round in the pipe is not your first issue of safety ... but I'm not selling guns, holsters or training.

So, there you are in the mall with your kid and 2 of her friends. You finished build a bear and just grabbed the gooey goodness of a 4 pack of Cinnabon (original, not the stupid little ones) and a couple extra frosting and maybe drinks, when someone walks out of (you name it) store and starts shooting. At this point you need 14 hands, not the 2 you came with. Situational awareness? 3 kids, food, drinks, table search, peiple in thenway, and that a-hat shooting. Which spare hand are you using to rack that pistol while you are trying to cover 365 degrees while getting those kids out safely? -sorry, don't mean to be a dick, but yes stuff does just explode in your face. We plan for the worst day, worst situation, not the easy ones. If you wish to carry chamber empty I applaud you for carrying as it is more than most do. My response will not ever change, it will always be NO.

 

[Biggfoot44]

Hardwood is correct that being aware in advance is a goal & a hope . And * often * is possible.

But not Always . Armed Robbers do sometimes keep stealth in advance . Doors do get kicked in . Muggers and carjackers do sometimes strike from ambush .

And when there is sufficient notice to make ready briefly in advance , a ( handgun in ready to use with one hand mode ) allows Official Blaster Style Discreet Deployment, without fast dramatic movements and racking clacking sound effects .

To paraphrase a cliché - I can observe and scoot out before things happen while wearing loaded guns, way easier and more successfully than dealing with a sudden situation with an unloaded gun .

 

[Biggfoot44]

Yes, and rightly so. This empty chamber practice also seems to imply that DA revolvers - which always have a round in the cylinder/chamber - are inherently unsafe, which history has shown to be untrue.

I guess I was too insider/ subtle in my previous post referring Revolvers .

Point 1 - IF we accept at face value the ( usually) irrational desire to arbitrarily have an empty chamber underneath the firing pin , a Revolver CAN do that , with no change in ability or speed to bring into action. It will reduce the on board capacity by one round .

Point 2 - Ever DA Revolver vaguely suitable for carry is safe fully loaded . I'd almost say everything from previous 125 years , but there were some cheap Owl Head knock offs still in early 1900's .

 

[Blaster229]

I'm an old guy. Lots of military and other weapons training over 35+ years, and still not an expert. But I gotta tell you, all this conversation about being able to draw down on someone in a fraction of a second, or losing a whole second to rack, worries me. The consistent presumption is that you walked into a surprise gun fight without a seconds warning. The worry is that you had such a total lack of situational awareness. That's a problem in (IMHO) a vast majority of instances. Situations don't just explode in your face with no warning. Either there is plenty of latent risk going in, or it develops. All of which you should be anticipating. Not just waiting for last non-second to posture and prepare. It seems to me that a round in the pipe is not your first issue of safety ... but I'm not selling guns, holsters or training.

Situational awareness and carrying empty have nothing to do with each other. It isn't always about a gun threat. There are other weapon threats.
You never walk within arms reach of anyone, in the grocery store or home Depot? Never, huh? I find that hard to believe.
Because we go through life within the reactionary gap of others out in public.
That's when you might have to draw (and shoot)one handed, if someone grabs you.

 

[Mark75H]

Situational awareness and carrying empty have nothing to do with each other. It isn't always about a gun threat. There are other weapon threats.
You never walk within arms reach of anyone, in the grocery store or home Depot? Never, huh? I find that hard to believe.
Because we go through life within the reactionary gap of others out in public.
That's when you might have to draw (and shoot)one handed, if someone grabs you.

You better stop saying things that make sense. I already have too many quotes from you in my head that I wish I had time to relay to students in classes.