Another Saiga 12 what and WHY did you do what you did

[Leonidas583]

Time to step out of the shadows for a second..

First, a little history. I recently started participating in 3 gun competitions and recently went to NC Recon a couple weeks ago. I currently dont OWN a shotgun (yeah yeah...I know). I borrowed my friends FNH SLP and I have to admit the shotgun was great. The only thing slowing that thing down was me. Im not the best on reloading. But I noticed that a lot of people were using Saigas - to include the person I borrowed the FN from. My friend kicked ass with his Saiga. But, what interested me were the amount of failures people were having with them also. FTE..FTF..A couple of mags fell out of the weapon when they loaded it..One person had the wrong ammunition and kept on having to rack the slide after every shot.

So - to the point. Im strongly thinking of picking one up and my friend is definitely going to help me set it up for 3 gun and I do trust him (probably going ot pick one up through Atlantic Firearms) I keep on hearing that there are some mods that DEFINITELY have to be done. But when I ask around, I get "duh! uhhhh." Ive been on the Saiga forum but its a little difficult to make sense/navigate through all the BS.

What Im looking for - modification recommendations to make the Saiga dependable and smooth. Im going to use it for 3 gun - and just to shoot and have fun!! Stuff that Ive heard/read - convert it to pistol grip (already going to do this), polychoke, oversize charging handle, gas block modifications? bolt polishing? Yay/Nay? I heard it helps with loading a full magazine? Also heard to stay away from collpsable stocks? I see JT engineering has something that assisted with loading?

And of course, I dont want to go crazy..I do have a budget..

 

[Inigoes]

Get an adjustable gas plug from MDarms.com

Also have the saiga checked by a smith. Sometimes they arrive under-gassed (out of spec).

 

[erwos]

JT Engineering has a little nub that assists in lining up the standard magazines more quickly. The really serious 3-gun guys tend to put real magwells on their guns. I'm not entirely familiar with the process, and I believe it involves altering the magazines, but it apparently works great for fast, reliable reloads.

The only two mods I'd say are really essential are:
1. Getting your gas ports opened up correctly.
2. Modifying the bottom of the bolt to load a full mag (not the same as the polishing!)

Two that I would strongly recommend:
1. New gas piston (the CSS performance puc is well thought of)
2. New gas plug (the Tac47 one works great if you don't need 3" shells)

Other mods that might be worth looking into:
1. Bigger charging handle (Tromix has a bolt on, I think)
2. Better sights (Krebs?)

Stuff I wouldn't bother with:
1. Bolt polishing (I was warned off this by two experienced S12 gunsmiths...)
2. Railed handguards (unless you have a real need to hang something off them)

Personal opinion? Buy the gun, buy the parts, ship it to JT Engineering and have him do the dirty work. JT is a huge competitor, and he will get your gun running right... quickly.

 

[dwnthehatch]

JT Engineering has a little nub that assists in lining up the standard magazines more quickly. The really serious 3-gun guys tend to put real magwells on their guns. I'm not entirely familiar with the process, and I believe it involves altering the magazines, but it apparently works great for fast, reliable reloads.

The only two mods I'd say are really essential are:
1. Getting your gas ports opened up correctly.
2. Modifying the bottom of the bolt to load a full mag (not the same as the polishing!)

Two that I would strongly recommend:
1. New gas piston (the CSS performance puc is well thought of)
2. New gas plug (the Tac47 one works great if you don't need 3" shells)

Other mods that might be worth looking into:
1. Bigger charging handle (Tromix has a bolt on, I think)
2. Better sights (Krebs?)

Stuff I wouldn't bother with:
1. Bolt polishing (I was warned off this by two experienced S12 gunsmiths...)
2. Railed handguards (unless you have a real need to hang something off them)

Personal opinion? Buy the gun, buy the parts, ship it to JT Engineering and have him do the dirty work. JT is a huge competitor, and he will get your gun running right... quickly.

I have everything mentioned above and mine functions flawlessly. Mine was converted by JT Engineering. I definitely recommend him.

 

[rob-cubed]

Mods for fast reloads and reliability would include:

- An auto-adjustable gas plug (so you don't have to worry about different loads and proper cycling)
- Magwell addition and/or mod the bolt to allow for easier rock-and-lock. Magwell is the fastest but as you mentioned it requires modding magazines too. And you can't use drums with it.
- Better sights

I would also highly recommend a recoil-reducing stock. The S-12s kick like hell even compared to a manual shotgun.

Some Saigas are undergassed and require gas port work but these are the minority these days. All of the new ones I've seen have four ports, properly sized.

 

[erwos]

In terms of recoil reduction:
1. Rear tang intact: Mako recoil-reducing tube
2. Rear tang gone: Enidine Shot Shock

There have been allegations that these cause reliability issues, but I personally think it's BS.

Now, if you're a real competitor, you might also consider:
1. AR-15-style ambi-safety (AK safety = obnoxious)
2. Lighting Bolt left-hand charging handle (because left hand charging is the shiznit)

Simply put, the really amazing 3-gun S12s cost a fair bit of cash, but they're the closest thing you'll ever see to a perfect shotgun for the game... which is why so many folks run them.

 

[Leonidas583]

Thanks all! I didnt want to come across as someone who is going to purchase a new weapon and wants all the kewl stuff on it. if I am going to make this purchase, I want to make sure it runs and runs well for what I am going to use it for..

Erwos - REAL competitor - I dont think I will ever fall into that class! But, I dont want people to walk right over me!

 

[dwnthehatch]

R&R Targets seem to know what they are doing.

 

[erwos]

R&R is also really good - I think he's the one who came up with the ambi-safety.

You don't need to get everything done at once... most of this stuff can be added later.

Oh, and another one: LRBHO. There are now some parts out there to do it, with varying levels of reliability.

 

[Leonidas583]

R&R is also really good - I think he's the one who came up with the ambi-safety.

You don't need to get everything done at once... most of this stuff can be added later.

Oh, and another one: LRBHO. There are now some parts out there to do it, with varying levels of reliability.

LRBHO - I did see them out there. But didnt see many comments on them..

Agreed about getting everything done at once. Lets see how I do with it before I go crazy. I just want to get a good base going..

 

[Mr BoomStick]

tac 47 has an autoplug which works great, no more switching settings, set and forget. They also have a mag-well that has a side mounted mag release, and is straight insertion like an AR 15, also a must have for 3 gun. Have pauly from pauly's steelin polish the bolt with his glass bolt mod. He also re profiles the bottom of the bolt for easier loads on a closed bolt. Get the trigger reprofiled as its a modified ak 47 part and it sits too high and adds drag. Look up info at Saiga.com. Have the ports opened up if its a 3 port gun the ports should be about .093 ona 24 inch barrel and 0.077 on a 19 inch barrel, then again port number and size may vary on your gun. Hope that helped.

 

[clandestine]

They were one of my specialties. Heres the last one I built for a customer:

Pistol Grip conversion with welded FCG holes
Welded on HK Sights
Weld on Galil Charger
Welded in Rear Ace Compatible Rear Stock Block
Welded Trigger Guard
Full FCG and Bolt Polish job
Trigger job
Enhanced Safety Tab welded
BHO rounded and polished
Tuned Extractor
Rear and Front Sights ground off and profiled
Contoured and polished Feed Ramp/Guide
Barrel removed/cut to 16"/rethreaded/Tromix Breacher installed and pinned/welded to 18.25" OAL/Barrel reinstalled
Gas Manifold honed and polished/Gas Ports checked
US Palm Pistol Grip
Extended Ambi Mag Release
HK Night Sights
Tromix Brake
Reduced Power 1st Stage Spring
10% Reduced Power Hammer Spring
Gas Adjuster
Internal Rear Steel Block
ACE M4 Hinge
Rounded Trigger Guard
Taoco FCG
RSA FCG Retainer Plate
Galil Charger
CSS 3 Rail Handguard
Magpul ASAP Plate
Colt Castle Nut
Enindine Recoil Reducing M4 Collapsible Tube
Magpul CTR Stock and Enhanced Pad

The only things I would change if it were mine is the Handguard. It would be milled to lighten it up. I would port the barrel and add screw in chokes and it would have a Mag Well added.

 

[adjusterr]

Saiga 12

I bought my S-12 from K-Var and, after a lot of research, sent it to Mike Rogers at Lone Star Arms in Albuquerque, NM, www.lonestararms.com. The model he built for me is "The Signcutter". Check the website. I couldn't be happier with the results. No FTF or FTE and will fire as fast as you can pull. Because of a bad shoulder I had Mike install his recoil reduction system, it now kicks about like a .223. Can you get the conversion done cheaper, yes, but you will not get it done better. I think you will enjoy the S-12.

 

[Leonidas583]

Clandestine - Looks great! Beautiful work! "Were" one of you specialties? I see that you are in Gen Burnie - Im not too far away from ya - Odenton

Adjusterr - How much (you can send in PM if you dont want to post) did you wind up paying for that?

All- this bolt modification regarding being able to load a fully loaded magazine - exactly what are they doing.

My parts list is getting bigger and bigger. But I guess that's what happens

Decisions Decisions! Im hitting the gunshow in VA this weekend..

 

[clandestine]

Clandestine - Looks great! Beautiful work! "Were" one of you specialties? I see that you are in Gen Burnie - Im not too far away from ya - Odenton

Adjusterr - How much (you can send in PM if you dont want to post) did you wind up paying for that?

All- this bolt modification regarding being able to load a fully loaded magazine - exactly what are they doing.

My parts list is getting bigger and bigger. But I guess that's what happens

Decisions Decisions! Im hitting the gunshow in VA this weekend..

I just dont have time to do gunsmithing anymore to meet the demand, so I retired from it for now. My other job just pays more so it takes precedent. I was gunsmithing for Scotts Gunsmithing, Glen Burnie, MD for almost 10 years before stopping.

 

[Leonidas583]

Looks like a lot of people use the Magpul stock..

 

[erwos]

Looks like a lot of people use the Magpul stock..

It's cheap and it's a 922r compliance part. I can tell you from personal experience that the 922r numbers start getting tricky when you use a foriegn pistol grip and stock while still trying to retain use of foreign mags. It's doable, though.

I am slightly less than enthusiastic about the railed handguards for competition guns... they're heavy, and you're better off with a decent scope side-mount if you want an optic. For "tactical" rifles, though, there's nothing more awesome than a Chaos Titan rail.

 

[Leonidas583]

It's cheap and it's a 922r compliance part. I can tell you from personal experience that the 922r numbers start getting tricky when you use a foriegn pistol grip and stock while still trying to retain use of foreign mags. It's doable, though.

I am slightly less than enthusiastic about the railed handguards for competition guns... they're heavy, and you're better off with a decent scope side-mount if you want an optic. For "tactical" rifles, though, there's nothing more awesome than a Chaos Titan rail.

Agreed. Im not hanging a light or an optic at this point - ill stick to irons at first. Lets see how I do with it at first and how I like it. But I have a BAD feeling that Im going to LOVE it!

Another suggestion I was given was a Polychoke...Like I said..Im not a shotgun guy..not even close..

 

[erwos]

I personally found the stock irons to be quite usable.

That said, I found my HK416 sights to be better, AND more bad-ass. Gotta upgrade them to tritium one of these days... Another sight option for rails is a set of Troy Micros. Expensive, but they provide lower sights that are still AR-15 like.

The bolt modification is just taking some material off the bottom, IIRC. Not rocket science. You can also just download your magazine by a round, which isn't a huge loss on some of the bigger mags.

 

[boatbod]

I put Krebs sights on mine. They are easy to use and very accurate with slugs at 100yds.