AGC March Match Registrations NOW OPEN - Steel Challenge, 3 Gun and IDPA

[MEGARMS]

"AGC Steel?" "Action Steel?" "AGC Action Steel?"

Now...since it's at AGC, making a change like that would probably require several meetings, votes, rule changes, and a fee increase...

Ok. This isn’t really a top priority right now, however keep the suggestions coming in. Remember that it needs to be something we can put in Practiscore and be searchable as well as somewhat descriptive of what we are doing. Many shooters looking for a match will search a certain area for upcoming events. When they see AGC Steel Challenge Tier 1, they have a good idea of what that means. While I like AGC Steel, Action Steel, or AGC Action Steel, I’m not sure that someone browsing practiscore would know what that means. (Or maybe they would).

 

[Red1917]

No idea what USPSA 2 gun is or what it's like, but having something like 2 Gun Action Challenge where physicality + mental challenges are involved is something that I would at least throw my hat in the ring on volunteering to work with you / Paul to see if we have any interest in that style of a match. Then "steel challenge" and "3-gun" can move towards more sanctioned and the 2 Gun or sometimes we could try 3 gun would be less formal?

This is the type of match I would like to see happen eventually too and would like to setup/run. I don't know how soon it could get started with everything else going on though. Honestly the more rules/divisions/formality we add to matches the less interest I have in them. I understand why some people want that but I'm in it much more for fun and self improvement than anything else

 

[Occam]

Hopefully M won't be troubled if I post this image from Sunday. Always helps to inform these conversations.

 

[boss281]

Hopefully M won't be troubled if I post this image from Sunday. Always helps to inform these conversations.

Quite a crowd! Posting video?

Sent from my Pixel 3a using Tapatalk

 

[Occam]

Quite a crowd! Posting video?

It wasn't a video kinda day. I was shooting two guns and being sherpa to the missus on her first time, too. So, video another time (and in somewhat warmer weather). Grabbed a couple drone snapshots to show how full-up it was.

 

[gmharle]

With all due respect, once you start shooting at a certain level of skill, you start understanding your gear and gun does matter. It took me a while to get there, but once you're there... I outshot most of pistol optic with a basically stock Glock 17 with a FF3. Doesn't mean it was fair, and I want fair. I support having a class for people who want to shoot casually and not think about it, but more serious competitors should have the option to compete with people who want to play by the same rules. It burns a little bit when you see that 2 of the 3 guys who beat you were using guns that were in a different division than you (one of them had a big magwell, the other was shooting a race gun).

I'm not demanding a super-competitive atmosphere, but we may as well not post scores if it's not a competition. And if it is a competition, it is not unreasonable to have rules that keep things fair between competitors, which means division rules that acknowledge some guns are in a different class than others.

Also, if there's no intention to use the Steel Challenge rules, let's stop calling it Steel Challenge, because it's not. Just call it Outlaw Steel, which is what it is right now.

I get what you are saying and would fully agree if this were the Steel Challenge World Championship. And at that level equipment does matter. But it isn't. It is just an unsanctioned AGC club match. If it is that important that you feel burned because you are not first on the list then I feel sorry for you.

 

[danb]

If the equipment rules are loose I think its totally fine, but I think part of the confusion is that there is a blurb in the invite:

AGCAS Steel Challenge Matches will be governed by the SCSA Competition Rules which can be found at the following link:

https://uspsa.org/viewer/2019_SCSA_Rulebook.pdf

clearly... not!

Some people may be following what they think are the rules and others (well, like me) just doing whatever is allowed. I can see how one crowd causes angst in the other crowd.

My 0.02 is it depends what the philosophy is. If the idea is to have a competition against other people the rules should even out the playing field, no question. If the idea is to compete against yourself and improve your time (that would be me and I suspect most people), who cares about complicated rules or that the guy/gal on your squad has an RMR, comp, and 1.5 lbs fancy trigger.

Either way, the blurb in the invite is misleading at best, and may lead to agita at worst. If the only rules are have fun, be safe, shoot fast with whatever you bring.... thats fine we should just say that.

 

[erwos]

Ok. This isn’t really a top priority right now, however keep the suggestions coming in. Remember that it needs to be something we can put in Practiscore and be searchable as well as somewhat descriptive of what we are doing. Many shooters looking for a match will search a certain area for upcoming events. When they see AGC Steel Challenge Tier 1, they have a good idea of what that means. While I like AGC Steel, Action Steel, or AGC Action Steel, I’m not sure that someone browsing practiscore would know what that means. (Or maybe they would).

I'm going to take one last stab at why I have such strong feelings about not calling it Steel Challenge Tier 1:
1. We're not using the rules - not really. Arguably, we have no set of defined rules, just SCSA rules we semi-arbitrarily pick and choose from.
2. We're not using the stages.
3. If someone searches Practiscore for the match, there is NO INDICATION that it is not a sanctioned event that does not use SCSA rules. Zero. Just checked. That is eventually going to piss off a serious competitor who didn't get the memo, and they will complain to SCSA about our misuse of their trademarked name.... and then we will have drama.

"AGC Action Steel" is perfectly fine as a name, and a short description of the match will give everyone the information they need to decide whether to attend. I don't like putting the word "outlaw" in the name, but that's also a possibility. We clearly have enough critical mass to sustain a name change.

I will again extend my offer to write descriptions, create rule sets, and answer questions however the organizers need. I can't come and help with set up on Fridays and Saturdays, but I can certainly help the rest of the week.

 

[Occam]

I was going to suggest the Ferrous Foe Fun Fest, but I think something more in the vein of AGC Action Steel, Steel Shoot, Social Steel, Squad Steel, Casual Clang, Metal Match, or the like is going to work, as long as it isn't invoking the name of a known formal match format that it isn't really seeking to be.

I agree that a little wordsmithing in the event description will go a long way to set expectations and reduce minor but noisy friction. Yeah, a comprehensive video that shows: "Here's what it's like!" is also worth a hundred name choices and description edits, and can also put noobs more at ease, while reminding experienced shooters that it's a great way to keep the rust off while not fretting about their formal standing.

 

[danb]

3. If someone searches Practiscore for the match, there is NO INDICATION that it is not a sanctioned event that does not use SCSA rules. Zero. Just checked. That is eventually going to piss off a serious competitor who didn't get the memo, and they will complain to SCSA about our misuse of their trademarked name.... and then we will have drama.

an excellent, excellent point.

 

[erwos]

while reminding experienced shooters that it's a great way to keep the rust off while not fretting about their formal standing.

You know, for all my whining about divisions, names, and whatever, this is precisely how I feel about the match. It is an awesome opportunity for me to get in match time and pressure-test gear while not worrying about screwing up my classifier scores and doing badly in sanctioned matches. There is just something different about competing against others that I don't think you can replicate in practice.

 

[rbird7282]

I would certainly prefer to not go crazy with the rules, I like it as it is now.
Having said that, if there's a way to make sure people are in the right division without too much time/effort that would be great.
I'm not going to win any divisions or speed contests but it's nice to be able to know where I stand against others shooting similar equipment.

The Stages of Madness should absolutely stay, they are part of what makes it so much fun. I agree with the earlier suggestion that maybe the Texas Star should be placed towards the beginning/middle of the stage to help speed up resetting.

2 gun matches with movement would be great but my that sounds like it would be well down the road.


Everyone is very welcoming and helpful to new shooters. I always try to help with tips/strategy for first timers whenever I can, I think it helps put them at ease and makes them want to come back for more, which is the whole point. I think maybe there could be an exception on coaching for first time shooters. I understand that you don't want the RO coaching shooters as it is a competition but for first time Steel Challenge shooters it can really help them as their shooting. First timers aren't going to win the division so I don't see the harm in it.
Just my .02

 

[photoracer]

As current serious Steel Challenge competitor and former 3-gun, USPSA, and IDPA shooter I kind of like the matches at AGC. As for the name I could care less however some might get the idea its a real SCSA match when it isn't. Monocacy Pistol Club calls their 5 target 5 run match Speed Steel. You can call it AGC Steel, Almost Steel Challenge or whatever its up to you all. As for divisions you should do what Monocacy did. Originally they had open and stock auto, open and stock revolver, and open and stock rimfire pistol. Over the years I have shoot there (since 2008), they have added Rimfire Carbine, Carry Optics, and PCC. Because the members wanted it. They are not picky about Carry Optics for one because they don'y do any Madness stages. When I shoot a 5 plate stage I only load 10 in the mag regardless of the gun division because it makes no difference. On the other hand when I shoot a Madness type stage I load a max 170mm mag in Open because I can. When I shoot Carry Optics I don't because that is the rule. You guys can make up your own rule if you like. Same with the holster limits in some divisions. If its your match and your rules do what you want. Just make sure you publish them so everyone knows. Its not like we are shooting for money here.

As for a sanctioned SC match you only need a minimum of 3 sanctioned stages, the rest can be anything you like at the Tier 1 level. You just have to give them non-sanctioned names.
If you want to shoot a serious but nice sanctioned Steel Challenge match there is a 7 stage match at Shadow Hawk in WV right around the corner from Peacemaker on the weekend of the 28th with 2 squads on Saturday and one on Sunday depending on entries. That is more than enough to get an SC ranking if you join USPSA/SCSA.

 

[MEGARMS]

Hopefully M won't be troubled if I post this image from Sunday. Always helps to inform these conversations.

Thank you so much for bringing out your equipment and taking the time to get us a few photos. I know it was a lot to manage between shooting two guns and helping your wife through her first match. We appreciate it.

Hopefully we can get you to come out and photograph/video one of our 3 Gun Matches soon. There are a lot more "carnival" games that make for good video and help to get shooters juices flowing.

 

[MEGARMS]

OK. Based on the feedback here, I have spent some time making some changes to the next Steel Challenge Match

1. Match Name - AGC "Outlaw" Steel Challenge Match

2. Added Divisions - The divisions now match the SCSA rulebook. It may seem a bit much, but whatever. If you don't care about your score or are not inclined to read through the rules to determine what division you should be in, then simply choose the Open Division
The 12 divisions we now have are as follows
-Open
-Limited
-Production
-Single Stack
-Revolver
-Carry Optics
-Rimfire Pistol Iron
-Rimfire Pistol Open
-Rimfire Rifle Iron
-Rimfire Rifle Open
-Pistol Caliber Carbine Iron
-Pistol Caliber Carbine Open

3. Added an MDS Username declaration on the registration page

4. Eliminated the 50% discount on a shooters 2nd gun - This is to ensure that we can accommodate as many individual shooters as possible, while still allowing those who really want to shoot two guns to do so. We'll see how this goes and may revert to the old policy when the weather starts to turn cold again

5. Most importantly, I added this disclaimer to the Registration page and on the welcome email

Disclaimer:
This is a fun/unsanctioned match. Our program is still in it's infancy, we learn something new about how to make things better each month, and we are still trying to figure out what we want to be when we grow up. As such, we always welcome constructive criticisms and/or suggestions.

All of that said, at the Match Directors discretion, there may be a few local exceptions/deviations from the SCSA rule set (ie. maximum magazine load out will not be enforced). If you are the type that this will bother, will be a problem for, or will cause you to criticize/condemn/complain incessantly, then please consider finding another match to shoot in.

There is a ton of work that goes into putting on these matches and we receive a great deal of positive feedback on our progress (which is appreciated). We are committed to making this match the best it can be for as many shooters as possible and will always do our best to exceed the expectations of the majority.

Thanks to everyone here for the feedback. This won't be the end of the changes we make, but I think it is a step in the right direction.

 

[boss281]

Nice Mike. I like it!

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[Occam]

Hopefully we can get you to come out and photograph/video one of our 3 Gun Matches soon. There are a lot more "carnival" games that make for good video and help to get shooters juices flowing.

That's a plan. All about some weather choices and my other scheduling, but I'll be there just to make that happen, which will produce some much more useful results. Looking forward to it (though long-range WX forecast for your 3/15 3-gun isn't very promising for this purpose!).

And on your other post, above (naming conventions, expectation-setting language, etc): nice! Seems like a good next step.

 

[MEGARMS]

That's a plan. All about some weather choices and my other scheduling, but I'll be there just to make that happen, which will produce some much more useful results. Looking forward to it (though long-range WX forecast for your 3/15 3-gun isn't very promising for this purpose!).

Not in any hurry. Maybe the April match would work better. We have the 200 yard range that day and a sponsor/our target supplier (GT Targets) is coming to set up a fancy stage that day.

 

[erwos]

Excellent changes. It'll hit my pocket book a bit harder, but I'm good with it.

 

[MEGARMS]

Excellent changes. It'll hit my pocket book a bit harder, but I'm good with it.

I am glad that you have a positive attitude towards it, however I fear that eliminating the 2nd gun discount will be portrayed as another AGC money grab; it really is not that at all.

The intent of this policy change is to expose as many shooters as possible to AGC Action Shooting. Steel Challenge seems to be the big draw at this point and after new shooters get a little taste of the crack (Stages of Madness), they sign up for IDPA and many have bought shotguns and started filling up our 3 Gun Matches too.

The last Steel Challenge match was full as we had a total of 78 guns on six stages. Seventeen of those were guys shooting a second gun. As I saw/see it, we had a few options

1. Increase the number of guns from 78 to 84 or even to 90 - This would add 45-90 minutes to the match which I don't think many would appreciate. I know I wouldn't.

2. Limit all shooters to just one gun - This would have opened up 17 slots for those who were waitlisted to shoot, however not all of those slots would have been filled in March

3. Eliminate the 2nd gun discount - This will likely discourage a good number of those 17 shooters entering a second gun, however is still allows for those who really want to enter twice to do so

If this policy doesn't yield the results we are hoping for, then we will change it again.

By the way, I think it is worth noting that all Action Shooting Proceeds (Match Fees, Holster Certifications, Steel Certifications, Steel Target Sales, etc.) go directly back into the Action Shooting Program. The AGC trustees have been very generous to us insomuch as allowing the sale of those 100 Fifteen year range badges to fund the shooting bay project (over $150,000 for the berm and Hesco barriers). All of that said, our program is on its own for the rest, at least in terms of props, targets, barriers, etc. Those things are VERY expensive when you figure a typical 2/3 IPSC target, mount, and stand runs about $150. That commercial grade Texas Start that everyone likes so much cost us $700 and so on.

Again, I hope no one thinks this is a cash grab. We want to attract as many participants as possible, keeps fees reasonable, all while earning enough money to keep buying nice props and build our inventory with more cool stuff.