AAR: Active Response Training Close Quarters Gunfighting (04/30/2023)

[erwos]

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Active Response Training Close Quarters Gunfighting Class AAR

The last class I took with Greg Ellifritz was his knife class in 2019, which I absolutely loved. In fact, it convinced me to carry a knife on me as much as possible, which was something of a lifest…

thehebrewhammer.net

The class title sounds a bit sensational, but it's a pretty apt description of what's in the class. It's a fantastic introduction to the concepts, was conducted in an exceedingly safe fashion, and had the flexibility to go at your own speed level in some of the combatives portions. If you've got a concealed carry license and have a chance to take this class, you really should.

H/T to @hogarth for his AAR, which convinced me I really wanted to go do this.

 

[hogarth]

Thanks for the shout out. Looks like the curriculum is basically the same as when I took it back when. Not a surprise. It's good stuff.

One note: I would list it as ECQG, not ECQC. If you tell someone you took ECQC, they are immediately going to assume you mean Craig's class, which it is not.

 

[erwos]

Thanks for the shout out. Looks like the curriculum is basically the same as when I took it back when. Not a surprise. It's good stuff.

One note: I would list it as ECQG, not ECQC. If you tell someone you took ECQC, they are immediately going to assume you mean Craig's class, which it is not.

Good call-out. I've switched the acronym.

 

[4g64loser]

Enjoyed reading your write up as usual. Interesting note on bringing a buddy. I know the resumes of the majority of my immediate shooting crew and I would be likely to game it knowing how they work and what they are likely to do.

Given the choice, I'd rather work against an unknown to keep it real. And rotate partners frequently to keep from getting in a groove. Did it this way yesterday in a class. And got my ass kicked by the BJJ guys.

 

[erwos]

Enjoyed reading your write up as usual. Interesting note on bringing a buddy. I know the resumes of the majority of my immediate shooting crew and I would be likely to game it knowing how they work and what they are likely to do.

Given the choice, I'd rather work against an unknown to keep it real. And rotate partners frequently to keep from getting in a groove. Did it this way yesterday in a class. And got my ass kicked by the BJJ guys.

Thanks! It would have been cool to switch off, but I suspect it would have just been too much management overhead.

 

[4g64loser]

Thanks! It would have been cool to switch off, but I suspect it would have just been too much management overhead.

Yeah. It takes time especially if there are live guns in the picture. We were using blue/red guns so no admin inspection. Just roll to the next person on the floor.

 

[erwos]

Yeah. It takes time especially if there are live guns in the picture. We were using blue/red guns so no admin inspection. Just roll to the next person on the floor.

One thing I rather enjoyed about using real guns was the stress test aspect. I don't know about the other people in the class, but my partner and I weren't very gentle with our guns. Both of them came out just fine, which was nice. You could also simulate pushing them out of battery, which came in handy once or twice.

 

[4g64loser]

One thing I rather enjoyed about using real guns was the stress test aspect. I don't know about the other people in the class, but my partner and I weren't very gentle with our guns. Both of them came out just fine, which was nice. You could also simulate pushing them out of battery, which came in handy once or twice.

Call me paranoid, but I don't like doing that without training barrels in the guns. Guess it comes from being used to full body searches (times three) prior to working force on.

Definitely value in pushing your carry gun hard. I typically carry a glock 19 and I've had it for a while. Hitting someone with it is not as authoritative as a 1911 or cz though and there aren't many sharp corners. The front edge of the ejection port opening in the slide will *definitely* remove tissue, however, on a retraction. Don't know if it was covered in the class, but you should strike with the top of the slide on most guns. Especially the newer plastic fantastics. If you are planning on pistol whipping someone.

The out of battery trick is fun to pull IF you know the other guy has a gun it works on. We played with primed cases in the guns some years ago (no, it wasn't authorized and we shouldn't have been doing it) and I sent a guy to the hospital when he tried that on me. I was carrying a p7 at the time. His hand sealed the bore but I just grinned and pulled the trigger. I was an ******* to do that but I wasn't the only one. It doesn't work on revolvers either. Seen a couple of guys who are lightning fast and had strong hands keep the cylinder from turning.

 

[erwos]

Call me paranoid, but I don't like doing that without training barrels in the guns. Guess it comes from being used to full body searches (times three) prior to working force on.

I'm with you, but it's just not realistic for an open enrollment class. I felt like roping the barrels did well enough.

Definitely value in pushing your carry gun hard. I typically carry a glock 19 and I've had it for a while. Hitting someone with it is not as authoritative as a 1911 or cz though and there aren't many sharp corners. The front edge of the ejection port opening in the slide will *definitely* remove tissue, however, on a retraction. Don't know if it was covered in the class, but you should strike with the top of the slide on most guns. Especially the newer plastic fantastics. If you are planning on pistol whipping someone.

Strikes were as you describe - muzzle or top of the slide. I'm sure it's quite entertaining to give someone a good pistol whipping with the grip, but I could absolutely imagine it breaking a gun.

The out of battery trick is fun to pull IF you know the other guy has a gun it works on. We played with primed cases in the guns some years ago (no, it wasn't authorized and we shouldn't have been doing it) and I sent a guy to the hospital when he tried that on me. I was carrying a p7 at the time. His hand sealed the bore but I just grinned and pulled the trigger. I was an ******* to do that but I wasn't the only one. It doesn't work on revolvers either. Seen a couple of guys who are lightning fast and had strong hands keep the cylinder from turning.

Man, primed cases can do some damage if you're pulling the trigger in contact.

 

[4g64loser]

I'm with you, but it's just not realistic for an open enrollment class. I felt like roping the barrels did well enough.

Strikes were as you describe - muzzle or top of the slide. I'm sure it's quite entertaining to give someone a good pistol whipping with the grip, but I could absolutely imagine it breaking a gun.


Man, primed cases can do some damage if you're pulling the trigger in contact.

Roping is fine if people are searched and there are engineering controls in place preventing them from exiting the "sanitized environment". We establish physical demarcation. You don't cross it without being searched and if you leave, searches are repeated prior to reentry.

Strikes with the muzzle, depending on the gun, can actually cause some troubles. Played with it some time back and found that flesh or clothing could get caught in some guns when slammed into someone. This entanglement not only put most guns out of battery but meant extra difficulty in retraction from the strike up to and including "leashing" you to the person you muzzle stamped. Totally different ballgame with carbines.... bayoneting someone with muzzle device WORKS. I was wearing soft armor for testing and it still hurt when one of the guys would drill me. Being a midget, I got picked to be the dummy and of course the 6'5" dude was on the carbine.

And the primed cases were stupid. Even a couple feet away, it was a bad idea. We were just being retards and should never have done it. Broke a lot of safety protocols. That was a long time ago at a very different job.

 

[hogarth]

The lesson learned about the comped/ported handguns is worth drawing attention to, in my opinion.

Back when the Roland Special was the "it" gun, a few were used in Craig's ECQC class with some issues. But those who had guns like the Performance Center S&W Shield or Glock 19C had major spalling issues, to the point that Craig banned such guns from ECQC classes.

I myself never understood the purpose of these "velocity reducers" in non-competitve environments. Shaving 0.015 seconds off split times just never seemed worth the drawbacks revealed after taking combative pistol courses.

 

[4g64loser]

The lesson learned about the comped/ported handguns is worth drawing attention to, in my opinion.

Back when the Roland Special was the "it" gun, a few were used in Craig's ECQC class with some issues. But those who had guns like the Performance Center S&W Shield or Glock 19C had major spalling issues, to the point that Craig banned such guns from ECQC classes.

I myself never understood the purpose of these "velocity reducers" in non-competitve environments. Shaving 0.015 seconds off split times just never seemed worth the drawbacks revealed after taking combative pistol courses.

Agree 100 percent.

I've shot compensated glock (31C) in full dark and it is NOT a good way to ride. Put a regular 31 barrel and it was a LOT better. The spalling is a safety issue in classes as well as a practical issue in real life.

Those things said, people are not going to listen til they shoot those things from retention and/or without ears on. Let em shoot their own shoot. Hopefully they learn.

 

[Biggfoot44]

Hopefully they learn without suffering major eye damage first .

 

[4g64loser]

Hopefully they learn without suffering major eye damage first .

Haha. I agree but some people have to touch the hot stove more than once!

 

[Garet Jax]

The lesson learned about the comped/ported handguns is worth drawing attention to, in my opinion.

I've shot compensated glock (31C) in full dark and it is NOT a good way to ride. Put a regular 31 barrel and it was a LOT better. The spalling is a safety issue in classes as well as a practical issue in real life.

Let's just say (hypothetically of course) that someone on this board has no idea of what you speak. Let's also say that same person (still hypothetically) carries a G35 which has a vented slide. Could you help this hypothetical person understand your discussion a little better?

 

[4g64loser]

Let's just say (hypothetically of course) that someone on this board has no idea of what you speak. Let's also say that same person (still hypothetically) carries a G35 which has a vented slide. Could you help this hypothetical person understand your discussion a little better?

Of course. The cutout in the slide is not an issue UNLESS the barrel has holes (ports) cut into it. If the barrel is ported, the easiest way to illustrate the issue without pain is to hold a piece of paper or cardboard over the slide and pull the trigger. The effects will be very evident. Now instead of shooting at arms length from face, with barrel at approximately eye level, imagine shooting with the weapon held tight to the outside of your pec and angled downward. What happened to the paper will happen to your neck/face/eyes.

This hypothetical person has been in classes before and is a smart guy. At least I think so.

 

[hogarth]

Let's just say (hypothetically of course) that someone on this board has no idea of what you speak. Let's also say that same person (still hypothetically) carries a G35 which has a vented slide. Could you help this hypothetical person understand your discussion a little better?

Yep. The G34/35 (pre Gen 5) have lightening cuts in the slide, not ported/comped barrels. It's a non-issue for them unless some sort of aftermarket ported barrel is added.

 

[erwos]

Of course. The cutout in the slide is not an issue UNLESS the barrel has holes (ports) cut into it. If the barrel is ported, the easiest way to illustrate the issue without pain is to hold a piece of paper or cardboard over the slide and pull the trigger. The effects will be very evident. Now instead of shooting at arms length from face, with barrel at approximately eye level, imagine shooting with the weapon held tight to the outside of your pec and angled downward. What happened to the paper will happen to your neck/face/eyes.

If you really want to see the spall effects, I assume you'd need to hold the paper a foot or so above the slide, otherwise the gas is just going to rip it apart, spall or no spall.

 

[4g64loser]

If you really want to see the spall effects, I assume you'd need to hold the paper a foot or so above the slide, otherwise the gas is just going to rip it apart, spall or no spall.

Even the gas discharge is highly unpleasant, especially in real world conditions with no eye protection.

The factory C glocks don't seem to discharge much in the way of metal; just a lot of hit gas. My main complaint was trying to shoot them in partial or full dark. Couldn't see shit, even with quality defensive ammo that should be lower flash.

 

[Garet Jax]

Of course. The cutout in the slide is not an issue UNLESS the barrel has holes (ports) cut into it. If the barrel is ported, the easiest way to illustrate the issue without pain is to hold a piece of paper or cardboard over the slide and pull the trigger. The effects will be very evident. Now instead of shooting at arms length from face, with barrel at approximately eye level, imagine shooting with the weapon held tight to the outside of your pec and angled downward. What happened to the paper will happen to your neck/face/eyes.

This hypothetical person has been in classes before and is a smart guy. At least I think so.

Yep. The G34/35 (pre Gen 5) have lightening cuts in the slide, not ported/comped barrels. It's a non-issue for them unless some sort of aftermarket ported barrel is added.

If you really want to see the spall effects, I assume you'd need to hold the paper a foot or so above the slide, otherwise the gas is just going to rip it apart, spall or no spall.

Thanks folks - I was very aware of that possibility with revolvers (hickok has a good you tube video discussing it), but was not aware it was possible with a slide. Ported barrel makes a lot of sense.

The hypothetical G35 is using a stock barrel so it sounds like the added risk is minimal except for the front of the muzzle.

The hypothetical board member's mind is more at ease...

Hypothetically