9mm vs 40cal

[Parallax-Free]

So when you practical/tactical guys train, do you train single pistol or go pistols akimbo with your matched Glocks or Sigs?
I mean you could encounter multiple intruders. And do you just double tap the head since they could be using body armor?

View attachment 209645

I train with what I plan to have at hand should the need arise. Including a super sweet katana and a tactical lamp.

 

[Squaregrouper]

anyone remember Black Talons?

I have a box in 9mm

 

[sxs]

Wow! I was gonna chime in 45 with some of the earlier posters....but now I'm worried about over penetration!!

 

[Huckleberry]

I train with what I plan to have at hand should the need arise. Including a super sweet katana and a tactical lamp.

Katana? Ain't that one of them fancy Japanese knives like them ginsu's? My wife had them and they could cut a beer can in half then cut your tomato.

So how do you practice with your Katana? You practice stabbin', cuttin' and slicing on a dummy? Practice with some watermelons and cantaloupes?

 

[Parallax-Free]

Wow! I was gonna chime in 45 with some of the earlier posters....but now I'm worried about over penetration!!

My opinion is that anyone using a 6" .460 for home protection is clearly compensating for lifelong "under-penetration"

That or they've been repeatedly robbed by moose

 

[Alan3413]

You people are all amateurs.

I put one of these under the welcome mat. Problem solved.

 

[Parallax-Free]

Katana? Ain't that one of them fancy Japanese knives like them ginsu's? My wife had them and they could cut a beer can in half then cut your tomato.

So how do you practice with your Katana? You practice stabbin', cuttin' and slicing on a dummy? Practice with some watermelons and cantaloupes?

They're fancier than a ginsu, they'll cut through a beer can, then a tomato, then a tree, then through your neighbor's wall causing god knows what kind of chaos. Katana over-penetration is a serious problem facing this nation.

I have a small collection, mostly for the workmanship. But on occasion, they are fun to swing at things, Never used for any type of home defense.

I'm shocked you didn't have more questions about the tactical lamp.

 

[sxs]

My opinion is that anyone using a 6" .460 for home protection is clearly compensating for lifelong "under-penetration"

That or they've been repeatedly robbed by moose

It's 8-3/8"

 

[Parallax-Free]

It's 8-3/8"

oh my!

looks smaller in the photo

That's what she said

 

[Blaster229]

There are a few people from the forum I wouldn't get along with in real life, and you're one of them. Your knowledge and experience is overwhelming. Thank you for your posts. Really.

 

[DaemonAssassin]

Fact: There's a first time for everything.

Fact: MD is cracking down on all forms of gun violence, don't be a poster child

Fact: .45 is more practical for home defense than 10mm

Fact: I have built and own several AR's and AR pistols. I still choose the 9mm in that platform for home defense outside of a .45 pistol.

Fact: A 5.56 projectile going Mach 3 penetrates plenty, and the surfaces in my home of which I'm concerned are plaster/brick/cinder block. Not drywall. My HP 9mm ammo will frag before making it through that, the 5.56 may pass through. No sense in risking it.

Fact: I get the feeling you've taken a self-imposed crusade against BS when to me you are just contrarian. You see it as bad advice because you scoured every court case in the nation and found no evidence? That doesn't negate the argument that .45 ACP is more appropriate. I don't owe you any facts, I'm giving my opinion. You can refute it until you're blue in the face.

Good Day

Personally, I think you start looking at the physics and ballistics of what you are talking about. It is readily apparent that you have been spouting off nothing worthwhile to defend your "information". As for the 45ACP doing the job better than a 9mm, we must again turn to ballistics, physics, and history. Specifically the Moro Rebellion in the Philippines.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moro_Rebellion#Juramentados_and_stopping_power

There is a reason why the 45 has more stopping power than a 9mm. It is the physics that prove this point. If you have a 230 grain projectile moving at 850-1050fps, you will have around 500 ft/lbs of energy at the muzzle.

A 9mm will be around 200-300 ft/lbs of energy at the muzzle.

As for the 556/223 energy, here we go.

The physics behind the issue of over penetration are easy to understand, if you understand how physic plays the part. Here is how this works. Even though a pistol bullet is moving slower and has less energy, it will still penetrate more barriers, because it has more mass. In physics a object in motion will not stop unless an equal opposing force is applied to it. In layman's terms for this argument, we are going to use the walls as the opposing force. The wall does not have enough opposing force to counteract the MASS of the pistol bullet, due to the weight. Whereas the 223/556 bullet does not have the same mass so it requires less of an opposing force to stop it, compared to a pistol bullet. A 55gr projectile will shed velocity and energy at a much higher rate, when it meets a solid barrier, like drywall for this very reason, due to the physics.

To a hunter, a lighter bullet will not have the energy to cleanly harvest the animal, but a heavier bullet moving at a slower velocity will make the kill cleaner. The concept with the hunter is the exact same thing as over penetration with walls or other barriers.

Have you ever seen a police officer complain about how the 223/556 will not penetrate a windshield or other glass barrier with predictable results in knowing where the projectile will go? I have and it is because of how fast the 223/556 bleeds energy as it starts to penetrate the barrier. But of the same token, the pistol rounds will punch clean through the barrier with predictable results in knowing where the projectile will go.

My knowledge of the ballistics comes from reading reloading books, memorizing the information within it, and learning how to get the ballistics I want in the ammo I load for hunting or plinking.

Nice try, but ballistics and physics show your argument is false with your statements.

 

[DaemonAssassin]

You might miss something fun.

I posted an article similar to Smokey's, it clearly went unread. I wasn't trying to be "contrarian". I have learned a lot here.

I learned not to visit you when Wes is storing his med bunker at your office.

 

[DaemonAssassin]

There are a few people from the forum I wouldn't get along with in real life, and you're one of them. Your knowledge and experience is overwhelming. Thank you for your posts. Really.

Because it is you and I know you are all warm an fuzzy beneath the hard ass exterior on here.

 

[Parallax-Free]

Personally, I think you start looking at the physics and ballistics of what you are talking about. It is readily apparent that you have been spouting off nothing worthwhile to defend your "information".

Nice try, but ballistics and physics show your argument is false with your statements.

Thanks for taking the time to thoroughly respond to a question I didn't ask or insinuate to. I understand how the physics works. That part is not negotiable. But the info in those books or references exists in a vacuum. But when you have the vast knowledge that you do, it's not surprising that you'd want to flex it. And I don't blame you. I don't know how to state more clearly what I already have several times. You must have been skimming, because I never ONCE argued that .45acp has less stopping power than 9mm, Unless you are just using that as an example between calibers, bullet weight, and SAAMI powder loads.

The reason for my indignance in the face of what everyone on here seems to think I don't know because it contradicts their own information is because of what I have been testing over the last few months. I bought a house. During the renovation, I salvaged pieces of the plaster walls, Cinder block, and brick used in its construction. Because I had never lived in such a home, I decided to test the sturdiness of these barriers against what I wanted to use for home defense. The plaster failed against both Speer .223 62gr SP, and Hornady Critical Duty 135gr+p FlexLock. On the other hand, the Speer managed to throw shards of lead and copper with enough energy to cause concern through the brick and cinder blocks. The 9mm, even though it was going slower, even though it has more than twice the mass, did not pass through at all. 10.5" barrels on both as narrow halls are a factor, they are pistols, not SBR's.

I get that this forum is a wealth of information, the whole point is to share experiences and help each other. I tried to do that with this post, I may have chosen poorly with some of my wording, sure. But there's book learnin' and there's real world experience, and that's where you get variables. I won't just sit there and apologize for telling people what I saw with my own eyes and pretend it didn't happen because you tell me it didn't.

There are massive amounts of information about firearms that I don't have in my head. I'm here all the time, asking questions, getting answers from people who know more than I. I get schooled on a regular basis, That's precisely why I joined MDS. But I also am willing to stand up for myself to people who think they know better than what I've actually done.

 

[eruby]

..... with bastard filling.

 

[smokey]

Personally, I think you start looking at the physics and ballistics of what you are talking about. It is readily apparent that you have been spouting off nothing worthwhile to defend your "information". As for the 45ACP doing the job better than a 9mm, we must again turn to ballistics, physics, and history. Specifically the Moro Rebellion in the Philippines.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moro_Rebellion#Juramentados_and_stopping_power

There is a reason why the 45 has more stopping power than a 9mm. It is the physics that prove this point. If you have a 230 grain projectile moving at 850-1050fps, you will have around 500 ft/lbs of energy at the muzzle.

A 9mm will be around 200-300 ft/lbs of energy at the muzzle.

As for the 556/223 energy, here we go.

The physics behind the issue of over penetration are easy to understand, if you understand how physic plays the part. Here is how this works. Even though a pistol bullet is moving slower and has less energy, it will still penetrate more barriers, because it has more mass. In physics a object in motion will not stop unless an equal opposing force is applied to it. In layman's terms for this argument, we are going to use the walls as the opposing force. The wall does not have enough opposing force to counteract the MASS of the pistol bullet, due to the weight. Whereas the 223/556 bullet does not have the same mass so it requires less of an opposing force to stop it, compared to a pistol bullet. A 55gr projectile will shed velocity and energy at a much higher rate, when it meets a solid barrier, like drywall for this very reason, due to the physics.

To a hunter, a lighter bullet will not have the energy to cleanly harvest the animal, but a heavier bullet moving at a slower velocity will make the kill cleaner. The concept with the hunter is the exact same thing as over penetration with walls or other barriers.

It's an energy vs. momentum thing.... mass is just part of the equation.


Here's a pretty hot 55 gr load (it'd probably be going slower out of a 16" barrel) compared to a 45 critical duty .45 load. Notice that while the rifle has almost 3 times the energy, the 45 has more momentum. Energy is just the ability to do work, the momentum has a role in shaping how the work is done.

With more momentum, the .45 will resist deflection and will tend to deposit its energy in a straight line in front of it. The 5.56 has a ton of energy, but less momentum means more deflection and radial projection. We can see this in gel, where a 5.56 creates a large enough stretch cavity to do damage with ripping/tearing while the 45 essentially just crushes through tissue with minimal damage done by a smaller stretch cavity.

Due to the differences in energy and momentum, the 5.56 will penetrate something shallow but hard(like a vest/sheet metal/cinderblock) easier than the .45, since it'll be effectively blowing the energy in a compacted space... but it won't really have much energy after going through it to do much and the projectile will just be fragments(bleeding energy quick and deflecting in random places). For one hard/shallow barrier a handgun projectile probably won't have the energy to get through.

If it's multiple objects that are easier to penetrate... like sheets of drywall(especially separated by a few feet of air), soft tissue...etc then the handgun projectiles tend to punch in a straighter path for longer distance as energy is pretty much conserved in the projectile and not transferred radially or into fragmentation. A 5.56 will tend to fragment quickly(relatively) and bleed off that energy quicker as it transfers more energy radially and deflects.

Basically the next time you're bowling throw a 8lb ball as hard as you can and a 16 lb ball as hard as you can. The energy is relatively consistent(what your muscles put into the object)... but the 16 lb ball should have more momentum. The heavier ball will track in a straighter line through the pins and you'll have less pin-action(more splits).... the lighter ball will deflect more and you'll see a lot of energy transfer.

 

[DaemonAssassin]

Thanks for taking the time to thoroughly respond to a question I didn't ask or insinuate to. I understand how the physics works. That part is not negotiable. But the info in those books or references exists in a vacuum. But when you have the vast knowledge that you do, it's not surprising that you'd want to flex it. And I don't blame you. I don't know how to state more clearly what I already have several times. You must have been skimming, because I never ONCE argued that .45acp has less stopping power than 9mm, Unless you are just using that as an example between calibers, bullet weight, and SAAMI powder loads.

The reason for my indignance in the face of what everyone on here seems to think I don't know because it contradicts their own information is because of what I have been testing over the last few months. I bought a house. During the renovation, I salvaged pieces of the plaster walls, Cinder block, and brick used in its construction. Because I had never lived in such a home, I decided to test the sturdiness of these barriers against what I wanted to use for home defense. The plaster failed against both Speer .223 62gr SP, and Hornady Critical Duty 135gr+p FlexLock. On the other hand, the Speer managed to throw shards of lead and copper with enough energy to cause concern through the brick and cinder blocks. The 9mm, even though it was going slower, even though it has more than twice the mass, did not pass through at all. 10.5" barrels on both as narrow halls are a factor, they are pistols, not SBR's.

I get that this forum is a wealth of information, the whole point is to share experiences and help each other. I tried to do that with this post, I may have chosen poorly with some of my wording, sure. But there's book learnin' and there's real world experience, and that's where you get variables. I won't just sit there and apologize for telling people what I saw with my own eyes and pretend it didn't happen because you tell me it didn't.

There are massive amounts of information about firearms that I don't have in my head. I'm here all the time, asking questions, getting answers from people who know more than I. I get schooled on a regular basis, That's precisely why I joined MDS. But I also am willing to stand up for myself to people who think they know better what I've actually done.

Your indignance is coming from a position of a lack of knowledge. I gave you factual information, based off of actual testing with new and uncomromised materials, not backyard testing with compromised materials from a demolition job. Those tests were done under controlled and uncontrolled conditions. You can not argue the testing in a vacuum theory, because that simply did not happen.

I am not "flexing my knowledge", I am sharing the knowledge that I have and do so freely in an attempt to shine light on new information for you. While at face value I do have considerably more knowledge about these things, I don't flaunt it or force people to accept my statements as valid. Your assumption as such shows that you should spend more time asking questions and accepting the answers, then asking the questions of "WHY" is that the case. No need to be confrontational and pissy about something. We share the knowledge freely and are willing to see other points of view and look at new information.

You can not argue that your position is tenable, because the science, physics, and ballistics show where your assertions are wrong. You can not say that the 223/556 has more penetration, because the physics proves you are incorrect. You can not prove that 9mm is better for stopping power than a 45, because the physics again prove you wrong. I used 9mm and 45 as a reference point, due to the physics and also how people predominately choose those 2 calibers for home defense. If you would have read how it was presented, instead of it as a implied challenge to piss you off, you would have seen that. I also used history as the example too, because the 38 Spl is nothing more than a glorified 9mm, but again the physics of real life, in combat show that over penetration of a handgun caliber will be greater than a rifle caliber at close range.

You want to argue a position as such, you need to bring factual science to back up your statements. I brought factual evidence and scientific evidence that can be replicated. I also brought accounts form LE that I personally know that have had to shoot through barriers. You only brought your word.

The problem you have with getting what you call "wrong information" is that you are being presented with a new degree of information and you are unwilling to accept that your choice is scientifically flawed. Open your horizons, look at the information I gave you, don't take my statements personally, do further research and talk to those that have been there. You will find out eventually that your preconceived notions are incorrect, and you will eventually free yourself from the bonds of closed minded thinking.

If you think I am just book learning, you would be sorely mistaken. I have shot barriers, animals, and other targets in my 30 years of being a firearms enthusiast. I study the ballistics of every new round that I want add to my collection, because I want to know what it will do and why it does that. I have the real world experience that comes from those 30 years of trigger time. There were no vacuum tests that I did. My tests replicated exactly what I used as factual examples, that can verified through replication.

A piece of advice from a long time member on here. When I joined, I got into it with some long time members (at that time), and some have posted in this thread. When I was proven wrong, it was hard to accept and I fought for my position, till I stopped and looked at what they were actually saying, not what I thought what they were saying. Once I stopped and thought about it, I realized that I was wrong in what I was thinking and saying in the presentation. I was confrontational and acted like a petulant child when I shouldn't have been and the members took that into consideration, with giving me a second chance. That incident has become a long running joke for myself and those that I tangled with. Maybe in time you will come to the same realization that I did, and this will become an inside joke for those that you tangled with. But then again, that is entirely up to you and how you act from this point forward. We won't conform to you, you came here so you have to conform to our community.

If you don't have the knowledge, ask the questions. An answer will come, but you may not like the answer you get. If that happens, be open to that answer and keep asking questions, until you get a thorough enough explanation.

 

[DaemonAssassin]

It's an energy vs. momentum thing.... mass is just part of the equation.
View attachment 209673

Here's a pretty hot 55 gr load (it'd probably be going slower out of a 16" barrel) compared to a 45 critical duty .45 load. Notice that while the rifle has almost 3 times the energy, the 45 has more momentum. Energy is just the ability to do work, the momentum has a role in shaping how the work is done.

With more momentum, the .45 will resist deflection and will tend to deposit its energy in a straight line in front of it. The 5.56 has a ton of energy, but less momentum means more deflection and radial projection. We can see this in gel, where a 5.56 creates a large enough stretch cavity to do damage with ripping/tearing while the 45 essentially just crushes through tissue with minimal damage done by a smaller stretch cavity.

Due to the differences in energy and momentum, the 5.56 will penetrate something shallow but hard(like a vest/sheet metal/cinderblock) easier than the .45, since it'll be effectively blowing the energy in a compacted space... but it won't really have much energy after going through it to do much and the projectile will just be fragments(bleeding energy quick and deflecting in random places). For one hard/shallow barrier a handgun projectile probably won't have the energy to get through.

If it's multiple objects that are easier to penetrate... like sheets of drywall(especially separated by a few feet of air), soft tissue...etc then the handgun projectiles tend to punch in a straighter path for longer distance as energy is pretty much conserved in the projectile and not transferred radially or into fragmentation. A 5.56 will tend to fragment quickly(relatively) and bleed off that energy quicker as it transfers more energy radially and deflects.

Basically the next time you're bowling throw a 8lb ball as hard as you can and a 16 lb ball as hard as you can. The energy is relatively consistent(what your muscles put into the object)... but the 16 lb ball should have more momentum. The heavier ball will track in a straighter line through the pins and you'll have less pin-action(more splits).... the lighter ball will deflect more and you'll see a lot of energy transfer.

You and I are saying the same thing, just in a different way.

Just don't ask me to come to class early because I forgot my pencil the day before.

 

[smokey]

You and I are saying the same thing, just in a different way.

Just don't ask me to come to class early because I forgot my pencil the day before.

It's cool, on the days we do written work, I've got big ol buckets full of pencils for the kiddos to use and turn back in. We do use kids for slave labor to setup and break down equipment though.

 

[Parallax-Free]

If you don't have the knowledge, ask the questions. An answer will come, but you may not like the answer you get. If that happens, be open to that answer and keep asking questions, until you get a thorough enough explanation.

You're killing me, man.

I appreciate the thoughtful insight. As I said, I come here and ask questions. I do. I am open to the answers given.

You make the assumption that the materials I used were compromised when I didn't disclose how they were removed from the house or how they were secured for testing. So what exactly makes that fair for you to say my setup was some jerry-rigged mockery of the scientific method? Why would I do that if the safety of my family or neighbors was potentially on the line?

If you made an impossible shot one day, but no one was there to see it, would you settle for people flat out telling you it didn't happen and that you were lying?

I am an open book, perhaps under ideal conditions, that 9mm HP would have sailed cleanly through that cinder and brick and the .223 would have poofed into a cloud of dust. When I tested it, that wasn't the case. Perhaps you may want to stop using your past tangles as an example to be applied toward me because you refute the findings of my test with data from your own tests.

Michael Jackson didn't come to my birthday party, a bullet went through a barrier, something they've been known to do. And the simple fact is that in my home if those are my findings, that is what I will base my HD decision on, not someone telling me it was impossible. I encourage anyone with the means to perform the same tests in a safe environment for themselves.

If you're wondering why I have the chip on my shoulder, take a gander at the previous posts in the thread. I rubbed people the wrong way the first minute I joined a few months ago, I learned that lesson. That was arrogance, this is not that. It's probably the one thing that I can speak to since it actually happened. Not just a young man coming on here pulling things from my behind and grappling with the village elders for the hell of it.

4 sets of 10 bricks, dating from 1951. Mortared, staggered and framed with 4x4 bolted together at I believe 175lbs of tension. Every set shot in three places. One set for 9mm straight on at 10ft, one set at 10ft 35-degree angle. The same for the .233 and the cinder blocks were set up in a similar fashion. The wood frames with the brick were C-clamped to 4x4's sunk in concrete. The cinder blocks on a table at just under chest level. As you can imagine, with all tests at the 35-degree angle, all rounds deflected and broke apart. In the straight-on test, I fired in a triangular pattern to try and maintain the integrity of the materials. The 9mm HP cratered the surface on 2 shots and cracked the brick pretty good on the third. The White paper behind the target showed nothing passed through. For the sake of repeatability, I then fired a similar group to the previously grazed 35-degree set, similar results. The .223 Speer shattered the brick on two of the three shots from straight-on, giving up slivers and copper to the paper behind it. As I said before, it was not much, but it was something. Probably 20 grains of scraps moving fast enough to cause concern. Re-shot the 35-degree brick, similar results. The cinder block was also dated 1951, I would assume, it's original to the house. all straight-on shots from both calibers passed through the first wall of the block, into the cavity in the middle. The 9mm's all stopped in the empty cavity, one of the .223's threw scraps through the second wall in the first test. And again on the re-shoot of the graze test set. If I had known I'd have to defend it to this extent, I would have taken video and posted it on youtube like all the other guys. But it was a personal matter and I wasn't concerned with that at the time. Oh well. I would have measured the density and tensile strength of the brick too.


If you don't believe me, that's fine. You are free to do so. But don't call me a liar or insinuate it by suggesting all I have is my word. My word is my bond, and I have no motive to type 20k words to defend a lie. Let this be the end of it, I'm finished discussing it.

I bear you no ill will but for the record, this is why I've been a shooter for 15 years and only joined a shooting forum this year. The internet, I tell you what.