9mm effectiveness per fbi

[Pinecone]

Funny thing is, the .40 S&W came out of the FBI back a while ago.

Actually, they picked the 10mm, then loaded it down a bit. And S&W figured they could make the same load in a shorter case.

And if 9 mm bullets have gotten so much better, doesn't it follow that the .40 and 45 bullets are also better?????

 

[TheOriginalMexicanBob]

It comes down to costs, handgun size, recoil, capacity...all are in the mix to come up with what's best overall. Even the smallest Special Agent can handle a 9mm and its recoil. Personally I think there should be a list of calibers and handguns that are approved. I think an agent should be able to carry the issue piece if he or she prefers or can provide their own pistol from an approved list and they can show competence with it on the approved course of fire. The Bureau should be able to specify which brand, caliber and loading for those who wish to provide their own.

But the idea of avoiding legal liability rules the roost.

 

[dist1646]

I'm really disappointed that the FBI didn't stick with those snub nosed S&W .357 magnums! You know, the ones like Effrim Zimbalist Jr. had in the series "The FBI, in color".
Just the thought of the muzzle blast from one of those would make the bad guys crap their pants!

 

[photoracer]

And from a liability perspective, a PD can’t put an unqualified officer on the st. Can you imagine the consequences of an qualified LEO shooting a bystander? 9 will be easier to qualify with. But if amazing technological improvements have benefited the 9, wouldn’t the same tech improvements be applied to a 45,for example, advancing the effectivnessof the 45?

No because the .45 and to a lesser extent the .40 don't have the velocity to take advantage of the things that have improved the 9mm like expansion. And of course what works on the 9mm works even better for the 357Sig except for the round count and the higher recoil. In WV my normal carry is a 9mm 1911 but for serious use I carry my HK in 357Sig.

 

[TheOriginalMexicanBob]

Funny thing is, the .40 S&W came out of the FBI back a while ago.

Actually, they picked the 10mm, then loaded it down a bit. And S&W figured they could make the same load in a shorter case.

And if 9 mm bullets have gotten so much better, doesn't it follow that the .40 and 45 bullets are also better?????

When I attended FLETC (Federal Law Enforcement Training Center) in the late 1980s, we discussed this very thing in officer survival class.

Now, I can't say this is completely accurate but what we were told by FLETC instructors. Prior to the 1986 Miami Massacre the FBI had chosen the 9mm over the .45 and more or less put down the effectiveness of the larger round. There was little realistic testing in making their choice.

The Winchester Silvertip that was blamed for not doing its job, performed exactly as designed...it penetrated the assailant's body to the depth it was designed to do. The problem was that it was a cross-body shot, not directly from the front and it stopped short of the heart. The wound was fatal but not immediately so.

The real blame for the massacre was first the bad guys...they were prepared for what they did. The FBI agents were not...tactically and readiness-wise regardless of the bravery they displayed. They simply did not have the mindset of going into a combat situation until too late.

The FBI couldn't admit their lack of readiness or that their agents made mistakes attributable to FBI training and doctrine. So...they settled on the ammunition to blame. They had to come up with a replacement...they couldn't go to the .45 as they had previously denigrated it so eating their words wasn't going to work. They found the 10mm...too powerful in its contemporary loads so they begat the 10mm Lite for issue. The pistol they chose was too large for many agents plus most, if not the entire order of pistols was defective which was embarrassing to all involved.

Then the .40 caliber was released with identical ballistics and could fit in a smaller, 9mm sized pistol which is where we ended up until recently when the Feebs went back to the 9mm (outside of the Hostage Rescue Team which still uses .45 ACP in the 1911 platform to my knowledge).

As I said...this is what we were told at FLETC. I also need to say that the FBI isn't held in the highest regard by other federal agencies...not because they're not good but because they're a very arrogant agency. Within federal law enforcement the FBI is sarcastically known as "God's gift to law enforcement".

 

[photoracer]

Since I now live in WV and carry a lot (but not everyday as sometimes I have to go back into MD) I am personally glad I took up USPSA and IDPA shooting while living in MD. Drawing is not actually as natural a thing as some think. That is why not only practice but scenario shooting in IDPA has a lot of benefits. Many stages begin with you standing, sitting, doing gardening, eating at a restaurant, taking a bath, you name it. Lots of situational starts.

 

[photoracer]

When I attended FLETC (Federal Law Enforcement Training Center) in the late 1980s, we discussed this very thing in officer survival class.

Now, I can't say this is completely accurate but what we were told by FLETC instructors. Prior to the 1986 Miami Massacre the FBI had chosen the 9mm over the .45 and more or less put down the effectiveness of the larger round. There was little realistic testing in making their choice.

The Winchester Silvertip that was blamed for not doing its job, performed exactly as designed...it penetrated the assailant's body to the depth it was designed to do. The problem was that it was a cross-body shot, not directly from the front and it stopped short of the heart. The wound was fatal but not immediately so.

The real blame for the massacre was first the bad guys...they were prepared for what they did. The FBI agents were not...tactically and readiness-wise regardless of the bravery they displayed. They simply did not have the mindset of going into a combat situation until too late.

The FBI couldn't admit their lack of readiness or that their agents made mistakes attributable to FBI training and doctrine. So...they settled on the ammunition to blame. They had to come up with a replacement...they couldn't go to the .45 as they had previously denigrated it so eating their words wasn't going to work. They found the 10mm...too powerful in its contemporary loads so they begat the 10mm Lite for issue. The pistol they chose was too large for many agents plus most, if not the entire order of pistols was defective which was embarrassing to all involved.

Then the .40 caliber was released with identical ballistics and could fit in a smaller, 9mm sized pistol which is where we ended up until recently when the Feebs went back to the 9mm (outside of the Hostage Rescue Team which still uses .45 ACP in the 1911 platform to my knowledge).

As I said...this is what we were told at FLETC. I also need to say that the FBI isn't held in the highest regard by other federal agencies...not because they're not good but because they're a very arrogant agency. Within federal law enforcement the FBI is sarcastically known as "God's gift to law enforcement".

HRT at one time used Novak customized Browning Hi-Powers (1980's I think).

 

[photoracer]

If you are limited to ball ammo by the Geneva Convention, then the .45ACP starts to make more sense.

 

[TheOriginalMexicanBob]

HRT at one time used Novak customized Browning Hi-Powers (1980's I think).

The last I heard (and it's been a while) the HRT carried a special model 1911 supplied by Springfield Armory, which won the contract. Once the contract was fulfilled Springfield released the same pistol (outside of different markings) commercially. Unfortunately I don't remember the model name but it was built to specific FBI criteria...essentially a specific mix of off-the-shelf parts extremely well assembled. I tend to doubt if the commercially sold versions received the same level of attention to detail as the genuine FBI guns to keep manufacturing and retail costs down.

 

[Magnumite]

That model is called the Pro. Those pistols receive the same level attention and build effort as the FBI guns do.

The original Pros actually had the same serial number prefix letters as the FBI guns did. SA changed that and now those tend to be
a collector's ambition with some.

 

[LRoberts]

45 is still king.

9 is used because having 17+1 rounds available is better than having 7+1 rounds available.

If a person shoots like the cops on CSI, he needs a machine gun. I like the Thompson "Tommy Gun". Remember St. Valentine's Day? :-)

 

[1time]

No because the .45 and to a lesser extent the .40 don't have the velocity to take advantage of the things that have improved the 9mm like expansion. And of course what works on the 9mm works even better for the 357Sig except for the round count and the higher recoil. In WV my normal carry is a 9mm 1911 but for serious use I carry my HK in 357Sig.

How do you figure. The 40, +P 9 and 45 go from high 900 FPS to around low to mid 1000,s in their heavier options. All three are around the mid 1100’s in the lighter options.

 

[lilgibby]

Following.

 

[cfiolx]

See stopping power tests

FYI, Lucky Gunner (website) has ran defensive ammo tests similar to the FBIs for .380, 9mm, .40. .45, .38/.357, and 10mm. See https://www.luckygunner.com/labs/self-defense-ammo-ballistic-tests/#9mm

 

[Zorros]

Took a 9mm shield tom5he range today for some from the holster drills. For me, the 9 was so much quicker in terms of multiple shots and more accurate than either a G 27 or G33. Next time i will shoot the 9 shield against the 45 shield. Would still like to find a sig 239 in 357 sig. suppose the weight will anchor it a little more?

 

[40rules]

I want the The 10 !

I do! If a 10 the size of my Kahr 40 were available? Oh my!
In all seriousness, the 9 and 40 are the same size usually. I'll always go with more firepower in the smallest package (for cc)

Come on you know you want the 10

JK.

 

[40rules]

Of course the 40 and 45 benefited from the same technology as the wimpy 9, sorry meant wonder nine. Still not a believer? Check out the gel test on the 40 HST and the 40 XTP.

 

[woodline]

I think the point that is being missed by some is that all three of the mainstream handgun cartridges exhibit similarly mediocre terminal effectiveness based on real world statistics, so the FBI decided to go with the one that is easiest for agents to shoot accurately with fast and consistent follow up shots on target. This decision makes sense for the FBI, but may not for the individual. Particularly if one is passionate about a given cartridge and is fast and accurate with handguns chambered in it.

Personally my primary home defense weapon is a suppressed SBRed AR15 chambered in 5.56. Since that is not so easy to carry concealed, I go with a 9mm pistol since that I what I have the most experience with. When I am allowed to carry concealed, that is. Stupid Maryland.

 

[Racer Doug14]

When all that happens in a self defense situation, fear,flight or fight, adrenaline, tunnel vision. Just hope you can put one round on target. Just one. Caliber won't be much of a consideration. You'll probably only be able to dump one mag, if lucky. As everyone knows, better to be lucky than good in a gunfight. Know your pistol and trust your choices. This and all data can only help.

 

[DutchV]

It makes sense that most handgun ammo performs about the same. Ever since the FBI came up with gel testing and ideal penetration guidelines, manufacturers have been tailoring their defensive ammo to hit that mark. So yeah, if they're all the same, you might a well go with 9mm and get a few more rounds in the magazine, and reduced recoil.