9 vs 45 and confirmation bias

[Blaster229]

FWIW, every noob I taught to shoot shot 9 and .45. Every single person was more accurate with the .45 Men and women. I am more accurate with .45 than with my beloved sig 357 or 9mm. I think in a SD situation, a newer shooter would benefit from having more rounds. I think a pretty well trained (by trained I mean by having more confidence, clarity and patience) shooter might benefit from the accuracy of .45 (but would easily get the job done with either).
I carry all calibers. Just depends on which cool pistol I feel like carrying that day.

 

[Pinecone]

Did you forget the posts by our trauma guy ... more holes mattered more than bigger holes. He also couldn't determine caliber unless he recovered an intact bullet. All he could see was one hole or more than one ... which greatly decreased the client's survival.

How many more?

Is 8 not enough?

And looking at the guy in the hospital is not the same thing as what happened on the street. Trauma doc had some great info, but he did not see what happened ON THE SPOT. How many shots were fired? How many hits were needed to stop the perp (fatality is not the desired result)?

Jeff Cooper looked that shooting. And found that, in general, those with more rounds missed more.

 

[Magnumite]

Good point. Sometimes how many shots actually caused aggression to stop cannot be determined. Many times if shooting COM until it is certain aggression has ceased more than one round is already in the perp...or victim.

 

[MD_3%er]

A few years back I settled on 9mm for my SD/HD needs, after determining that the performance of specific premium JHP ammo was more than adequate, and the advantages in capacity and lower recoil more than made up for any disadvantages in terminal ballistics. So, I bought the weapons I wanted, bought a bunch of ammo, trained, improved, etc. I've been content with my choice, and really had no reason to second guess. I've preached the advantages of faster follow up shots and higher capacity to friends and on various internet forums. Every 9 vs 45 thread I read further solidified my decision. I was a true 9mm fanboy, and the whole world (except for those elderly curmudgeons stuck back in 1911) agreed with me. I thought I was in a good place.

Recently, I had the opportunity to shoot a friend's 45, and even though I was unfamiliar with the specific gun, I shot it better than I shoot my own 9mms. I could handle the recoil just fine, follow up shots weren't noticeably slower, and there was just something really satisfying about throwing half an ounce of lead downrange. A bit of doubt creeped into my mind.

Even though I still believe in the logic and reasoning behind my original choice, I find myself repeatedly watching the various ballistics gel tests of 45 ACP premium ammo (like 230gr Federal HST). Seeing those massively expanded rounds (up to 0.9 or even 1.0 inches diameter in some cases) is extremely impressive.

In any case, this thread isn't really about the various pros and cons of the 2 calibers. That has been discussed ad nauseum and I don't expect we can add much beyond what has already been said thousands of times. This thread is really about trying to come to grips with why we believe what we believe. I think I've been suffering from pretty severe confirmation bias.

Once I made my 9mm choice, every argument I read in favor of 9mm was more logically sound, more well reasoned, more well written, and was probably argued by a very attractive and well endowed woman who is an FBI hostage negotiator and who just happened to be a world champion target shooter. All of the arguments I read in favor of 45 were made by unreasonable, out of touch, grumpy old men with an axe to grind against modern technology, semi-auto pistols, and the metric system.

It was only when I got off the internet, went out into the real world, and used all of my senses to experience something different, and the real world results differed from my preconceived notions, that I started to be more open to another point of view. Now don't get me wrong, I'm not saying I've changed my mind, and I'm not saying one caliber is superior in every way to another. All I'm saying is that we should actively challenge our own beliefs by being open to new experiences, being open to differing points of view, being less smug with our superiority, and being aware of the various biases we all have. If there's an ongoing debate about something, it's probably because both sides of the debate are defensible, and both make sense to some degree. Sometimes maybe there isn't just one right answer.

Thanks for reading, and happy shooting!

Did we determine what model your friend had?

 

[BMassBMore]

Did we determine what model your friend had?

Yes, a USP

 

[RoadDawg]

How many more?

Is 8 not enough?

And looking at the guy in the hospital is not the same thing as what happened on the street. Trauma doc had some great info, but he did not see what happened ON THE SPOT. How many shots were fired? How many hits were needed to stop the perp (fatality is not the desired result)?

Jeff Cooper looked that shooting. And found that, in general, those with more rounds missed more.

That's because... When one has more ammo to use... they tend not to pay as much attention to where they are putting them.

Superior fire power is not about having more bullets...

It is about having better and more bullets on target.

 

[Biggfoot44]

Or to quote a well known authority and multiple gunfight vetran " You will usually run of time before you run out of bullets" .

 

[Pinecone]

That's because... When one has more ammo to use... they tend not to pay as much attention to where they are putting them.

Superior fire power is not about having more bullets...

It is about having better and more bullets on target.

Agreed.

 

[fidelity]

Of course, one video on this topic proves nothing. So for your entertainment, here is an anecdotal example of the knockdown power of 45 ACP in a recent pawn store robbery where the bad guy lost ...

http://m.liveleak.com/view?i=d88_1483989722

I found this link on another gun forum where someone mentioned the store owner is a known competitive shooter and was carrying a 1911 in 45 ACP.

Sent from my Nexus 5X using Tapatalk

 

[DaemonAssassin]

A few years back I settled on 9mm for my SD/HD needs, after determining that the performance of specific premium JHP ammo was more than adequate, and the advantages in capacity and lower recoil more than made up for any disadvantages in terminal ballistics. So, I bought the weapons I wanted, bought a bunch of ammo, trained, improved, etc. I've been content with my choice, and really had no reason to second guess. I've preached the advantages of faster follow up shots and higher capacity to friends and on various internet forums. Every 9 vs 45 thread I read further solidified my decision. I was a true 9mm fanboy, and the whole world (except for those elderly curmudgeons stuck back in 1911) agreed with me. I thought I was in a good place.

Recently, I had the opportunity to shoot a friend's 45, and even though I was unfamiliar with the specific gun, I shot it better than I shoot my own 9mms. I could handle the recoil just fine, follow up shots weren't noticeably slower, and there was just something really satisfying about throwing half an ounce of lead downrange. A bit of doubt creeped into my mind.

Even though I still believe in the logic and reasoning behind my original choice, I find myself repeatedly watching the various ballistics gel tests of 45 ACP premium ammo (like 230gr Federal HST). Seeing those massively expanded rounds (up to 0.9 or even 1.0 inches diameter in some cases) is extremely impressive.

In any case, this thread isn't really about the various pros and cons of the 2 calibers. That has been discussed ad nauseum and I don't expect we can add much beyond what has already been said thousands of times. This thread is really about trying to come to grips with why we believe what we believe. I think I've been suffering from pretty severe confirmation bias.

Once I made my 9mm choice, every argument I read in favor of 9mm was more logically sound, more well reasoned, more well written, and was probably argued by a very attractive and well endowed woman who is an FBI hostage negotiator and who just happened to be a world champion target shooter. All of the arguments I read in favor of 45 were made by unreasonable, out of touch, grumpy old men with an axe to grind against modern technology, semi-auto pistols, and the metric system.

It was only when I got off the internet, went out into the real world, and used all of my senses to experience something different, and the real world results differed from my preconceived notions, that I started to be more open to another point of view. Now don't get me wrong, I'm not saying I've changed my mind, and I'm not saying one caliber is superior in every way to another. All I'm saying is that we should actively challenge our own beliefs by being open to new experiences, being open to differing points of view, being less smug with our superiority, and being aware of the various biases we all have. If there's an ongoing debate about something, it's probably because both sides of the debate are defensible, and both make sense to some degree. Sometimes maybe there isn't just one right answer.

Thanks for reading, and happy shooting!

Do some research on the Moro (sp?) Rebellion and why the 38 wasn't cutting the mustard. There is a very real reason why the US Military adopted the 1911 chambered in 45ACP. That is the only reasoning I need, to know that a fat and slow 230 bullet will take care of business on anybody, that my be hopped up on anything.

 

[Pinecone]

Do remember that the .38 in the Moro Rebellion was not the .38 Special, but the predecessor .38 Long Colt. 130 grain bullet at 770 fps, 165 lb-ft muzzle energy.

.38 Special is a 158 gr bullet at 770 fps, 208 lb-ft muzzle energy. Or 130 gr at 810 fps, 189 lb-ft.

That said, I still prefer a .45. 230 gr at 830 fps, 352 lb-ft muzzle energy.