80% Ar lower build Questions

[Rugbier]

The summary,

I was thinking how nice would be to own an under the radar AR ( just for the fun of it ), and that brings me to the 80% , HOWEVER, my technical capabilities might leave a lot to desire, so hence my questions:

A: ins't it true if you are not prohibited from owning a firearm, you can build your own?

B: isn't it true an 80% lower it is not a firearm?

C: being that A and B correct answer is YES, why people are concern ( as I have searched here ) about helping someone completing the 80%?

D: Are there any regulations that specifically forbid someone to assist another on said build? also, where does the regulations refer to the percentage between 80% and 100% make it a firearm, other than 100%?

I mean, lets say you do the drilling of the Trigger group area and the trigger and hammer pin holes, still not a completed gun, so you do not manufacture anything, and then I place the last hole.

Am I making sense or is it perceived as my hope for assistance rather than valid question regarding regulations?

 

[Name Taken]

Solution???? By a H-Bar non regulated AR from a private seller.

Under the radar Ar.

 

[Cai]

And pay cash.

 

[hvymax]

When you "create" things for "personal" use you are kind of lumped in with inventors etc. When you start providing to others then you are pushing your luck.

 

[Markp]

The summary,

A: ins't it true if you are not prohibited from owning a firearm, you can build your own?

Yes.

B: isn't it true an 80% lower it is not a firearm?

Yes, until you begin to complete it, it is not a firearm.

C: being that A and B correct answer is YES, why people are concern ( as I have searched here ) about helping someone completing the 80%?

There is nothing wrong with having someone assist you in completing an 80% receiver, HOWEVER they cannot do the work for you (e.g. you drop it off and then come back later to pick it up). You would have to be materially involved every step of the way. Nothing in the law prohibits someone assisting you.

D: Are there any regulations that specifically forbid someone to assist another on said build? also, where does the regulations refer to the percentage between 80% and 100% make it a firearm, other than 100%?

It doesn't... it is either a firearm, or it is not a firearm. The ATF does not make an 80% or 100% distinction so to speak. However, the ATF has in the past indicated that once a receiver has the capability to do 2 out of the 3 following things, it is DEFINITELY a firearm.

1. Mount a barrel.
2. Accept a magazine.
3. Accept a fire control group/trigger assembly.

If you look at an 80% AR receiver. You cannot mount the upper or install the trigger assembly without considerable work.

I mean, lets say you do the drilling of the Trigger group area and the trigger and hammer pin holes, still not a completed gun, so you do not manufacture anything, and then I place the last hole.

Doesn't work that way. See above.

Am I making sense or is it perceived as my hope for assistance rather than valid question regarding regulations?

Sort of.


@Name Taken, still not really under the radar... It has a history. A "under the radar" lower has no serial numbers, no identifying marks, and no transfer history. That is under the radar.

 

[Chris L]

Not a lawyer here, but if I remember correctly you are allowed to manufacture firearms for personal use, but if someone helps you with the last 20% the ATF would view that as manufacturing not for personal use.

Get an 80% lower from Tactical Machining - https://www.tacticalmachining.com/80-products/80-receivers/80-ar-15-lower-receiver.html.

Then, if you have access to a mill, get their 80% jig as well - https://www.tacticalmachining.com/80-products/80-jigs/80-ar-15-jig.html

If you do not have access to a mill, but have access to a drill press, get the CNC Gunsmithing jig - http://www.cncguns.com/tooling.html

 

[Markp]

Not a lawyer here, but if I remember correctly you are allowed to manufacture firearms for personal use, but if someone helps you with the last 20% the ATF would view that as manufacturing not for personal use.

No Offense Chris, Based on what regulation or official interpretation? There is nothing, absolutely nothing, that says you can't get help (at least that I am aware of).

One company had a build party where you set your lower into their CNC machine, did all the machine setup, ran their G code, used their electricity, and all you did was press a button... and viola, you had manufactured your own lower. I would not only call that help, I would call that A LOT OF HELP.

Now, I will agree with you that the jigs make this NEARLY stupid proof, it is within the capability of most anyone, and if you are serious about doing this, buy a JIG. I use the TM 80% and TM Jig with a harbor freight mini mill. It's slow, but it gets the job done.

Mark

 

[hvymax]

No Offense Chris, Based on what regulation or official interpretation? There is nothing, absolutely nothing, that says you can't get help (at least that I am aware of).

Tactical machining had a build party where you set your lower into their CNC machine, did all the machine setup, ran their G code, used their electricity, and all you did was press a button... and viola, you had manufactured your own lower. I would not only call that help, I would call that A LOT OF HELP.

Now, I will agree with you that the jigs make this NEARLY stupid proof, it is within the capability of most anyone, and if you are serious about doing this, buy a JIG. I use the TM 80% and TM Jig with a harbor freight mini mill. It's slow, but it gets the job done.

Mark

Where is Tactical machine? That sounds like a neat way to spend a day.

 

[Markp]

.

 

[E.Shell]

Good post MarkP.

The law is linked in this post, but essentially you must finish your 80% lower yourself or your helper could be considered a manufacturer, and if you get it from someone else, you then also have the transfer law to consider.

 

[FrankOceanXray]

But if done at hike then no SN, no roll marks, no need for SOT Class anything?

 

[Ab_Normal]

But if done at hike then no SN, no roll marks, no need for SOT Class anything?

Can we get the english translation?

 

[ThisGuy918]

Biggest problem I have is cost difference between a drill press and a mini mill. A drill press can be found for relatively cheap(under 100) vs a mill that is going to cost 400+ at a minimum. Also time associated with each. The end product will be the same either way but the milled version possibly being slightly cleaner. I guess the question comes down to how many you are going to make and if you are going to stick with ar-15's only or are going to branch out and do ar-10's later on.

 

[Rugbier]

All I want is to make 2 or 3 ( AR15 ) for the lulz.

I can't justify spending those amounts in the jigs, the mill, etc

I see guys in Calguns ( in Kalifornia nonetheless ) getting group buys of these things, and upon arrival, they meet at a guy's house that has the mill, the jigs and helps them, and I guess I was wandering/hoping to find that here.

 

[ThisGuy918]

I doubt you will find that here in maryland. If I owned the equipment I definitely WOULDN'T do it. The possiblilty of having issue with the ATF alone are not worth it. One person explaining the wrong way that "such and such" helped them/built it for them could cause a whole bunch of headaches that none of us need.

On a side note. If I owned the jig to do it, I would have no problem borrowing them to someone and give them guidance. But in no shape, way or form would i help them physically make it. Then it would be no different than borrowing someone a hammer to build a house.

 

[Rugbier]

I agree, I was not searching for someone to do it ( as that is part of the experience ) but more like the How To ( that can be found on the net ), the Tools and the confidence move like " Stop that , you are screwing it up " sort of guidance

 

[FrankOceanXray]

Can we get the english translation?

Autocorrect.

If done like this, no need for marking of any kind? No SOT? Class 12346 anything?

 

[Joseph]

So let me get this straight. If I have a friend who has his own 80% lower and jig (or even if the jig is mine) and I allow him/her to use my mill & tooling to complete it, that is of questionable legality? Even if they do all the handle cranking?

 

[Rugbier]

So let me get this straight. If I have a friend who has his own 80% lower and jig (or even if the jig is mine) and I allow him/her to use my mill & tooling to complete it, that is of questionable legality? Even if they do all the handle cranking?

Well... that was my point I have a hard time to digest, because I doubt it is correct, as no one can show it in black and white ( printed regulation )

Certainly NOT being the case according to the guys in FL and California doing a group buy and using someone else's equipment to complete the built ( and they at best only press a button ) on the CNC Machine, and I am sure the boys and girls of the BATFE read CalGuns and many places where this parties get promoted and arranged.

The law stipulates the 2 out of 3 rule ( previously stated ) so, if the pin for the trigger and the hammer are not present, the Trigger assembly can't be installed and if the magazine catch isn't present, well it can't accept the magazine and mount a barrel, well impossible since there is no upper, so even if everything else it is done on the lower, you still have 2 out of 3 at a minimum at all times

 

[Chris L]

No Offense Chris, Based on what regulation or official interpretation? There is nothing, absolutely nothing, that says you can't get help (at least that I am aware of).

Tactical machining had a build party where you set your lower into their CNC machine, did all the machine setup, ran their G code, used their electricity, and all you did was press a button... and viola, you had manufactured your own lower. I would not only call that help, I would call that A LOT OF HELP.

Now, I will agree with you that the jigs make this NEARLY stupid proof, it is within the capability of most anyone, and if you are serious about doing this, buy a JIG. I use the TM 80% and TM Jig with a harbor freight mini mill. It's slow, but it gets the job done.

Mark

By assisting, I meant doing some of the work for you, based on Rugbier's question about having someone doing the drilling of the of the fire control pocket, and himself placing the last hole.

An FFL on another forum I'm on has stated that he was told directly by the ATF that someone could use his equipment, but as soon as he "helped them make a firearm" that he was manufacturing. I realized that leaves some interpretation as to what "helping" means, but I certainly don't want to be a test case.

Also, do you have any links to references about Tactical Machining's build party? The reason I ask is that I have seen multiple references on many different firearms related boards about a company (not TM, this was in Arizona if I remember correctly) that allowed individuals to use their CNC machines to complete 80% lowers by placing the lower in a jig an pressing the button. The company was allegedly shut down by the ATF for illegal manufacturing because the individuals were not deemed to be completing the lowers themselves. Again, not quoting this for truth, but I've seen enough references to it to be wary.