6mm Creedmoor vs 6.5mm Creedoor Recoil

[axshon]

So I'm going to 'remage' my 700 and I'm thinking of going to one of the 2 calibers listed in the title. My reason is simple: my 10 yr old wants to shoot with me. At 60 lbs and with an 11-11.5" LOP this kid is a definite peanut but a pretty good shot already on a 22lr and air rifle. 308 Win is a non-starter even with a heavy barrel, full chassis and 150gr MatchKings.

So is there much difference in recoil between a 6mm running 105's and a 6.5mm running something like a 140 hybrid? I'm not sure if I'm going with a varmint or bull barrel configuration yet.

In the mean time I have borrowed a friend's .223 action and purchased the mags for it. It's a 1:12 twist so I can really only go up to about 60gr projectiles and I already have a bunch of 52s. That will work till I can get together the scratch for the conversion.

I understand the brass problem with 6mm Creedmoor but am willing to deal with that if it makes for significantly lighter recoil. I was at the New Holland F-Class shoot last weekend and a couple of guys were talking to me about the 6mm recoiling like a 22 when running 105 hybrids and a heavy barrel.

Appreciate any insights.

 

[dist1646]

The 6mm with 105's will have less recoil than the 6.5 with 140's. I don't know how much difference there will be in "felt recoil" with the Creedmoor. I have similar capacity cartridges and base my comment on those. (6XC & 6.5x47 Lapua). You could run 107 gr. bullets in the 6.5 and felt recoil would be very similar to the 6mm with 105's. I ordered some 107 gr. Sierras for my 6XC and they messed up and sent me 500 of the 107 gr. 6.5 bullets. Instead of sending them back, I decided to try them in my 6.5x47. They were very impressive!
Have you considered doing a 6mm BR for your remage conversion? The accuracy is outstanding, recoil is almost nothing, you can buy factory ammo from Lapua and it is an easy cartridge to load for.

 

[Uncle Duke]

I've shot many 6.5mm 85 grain Sierra Varminter bullets, with mine being shot in .260 Remington. They aren't a bullet you tend to hear or think much about in a 6.5, but accuracy with the right load is outstanding. In terms of recoil, I'd equate these loads as being similar to a 100 grain load in a rifle I own of similar weight chambered in .243 Winchester. I've not tried to lighten them with recoil considerations in mind, but I have no doubt there's room to do so.

With the idea of a boy growing into either of your mentioned chamberings, I think you can go bigger bore here, and fairly easily tailor loads and bullet weights to mitigate any meaningful differences. If you envision growth toward higher BC or heavier bullets in the future as desirable, maybe for hunting say, that 120 to 140 range can extend a whole lot of possibilities.

 

[Speed3]

The 6mm with 105's will have less recoil than the 6.5 with 140's. I don't know how much difference there will be in "felt recoil" with the Creedmoor. I have similar capacity cartridges and base my comment on those. (6XC & 6.5x47 Lapua). You could run 107 gr. bullets in the 6.5 and felt recoil would be very similar to the 6mm with 105's. I ordered some 107 gr. Sierras for my 6XC and they messed up and sent me 500 of the 107 gr. 6.5 bullets. Instead of sending them back, I decided to try them in my 6.5x47. They were very impressive!
Have you considered doing a 6mm BR for your remage conversion? The accuracy is outstanding, recoil is almost nothing, you can buy factory ammo from Lapua and it is an easy cartridge to load for.

I agree with the 6mmBR...107gr SMK, 30.0 gr varget...can't go wrong. Shoots very well at 600 yards.

If you want something faster, 6x47 would be my pick. Again light on recoil and 250+ish fps faster. The plus is that it isn't a wildcat or require fire forming.

Good luck in your decision.

 

[Russ D]

I built my 11 y/o daughter a .223 Remington SPS based rifle. It's not the recoil that bothers her as much as muzzle blast. My advice would be to get a fast wist .223 and load 77's for distance shooting. Also I would avoid using a brake to reduce recoil. Eventually I'll rebarrel with a Remage setup, but probably not till she's 13-14. She probably has 25-30#s on your son but zero cushion in her upper body as she's a year round athlete. Here's her rifle.

 

[axshon]

Thanks all, sorry for the confusion. I'm doing this build for my daughter. She's very small and if genetics is any indication, she will end up in the shorter height range. I'm working with a friend now to shorten my Mcrees chassis to fit her and still extend to my 12.5" LOP.

Whatever cartridge I end up going with, it will be for both of us to use. I looked at the 6mm BR and watched a guy on my target run 3 197-199 6X stages at the match in New Holland. Trace was very good so I got to compare his trajectory with a 308 in the same lane on the next relay. Pretty amazing difference. I'm just not sure about the MV getting me to 1000-ish. I hadn't really considered 6x47 but now that I'm looking at it it may be a better bet.

For now the 223 will go into the chassis and we'll plink on the 200 line at AGC and out to about 400 on steel at the farm. That should be fine for this summer and we'll try and do the build in early fall.

I appreciate the info.

 

[Alderleet]

A suppressor helps more than any meaningful caliber issues.

My dad has always been a terrible shot, but he shot his first sub-moa 600yd group with my can attached.

 

[Speed3]

Thanks all, sorry for the confusion. I'm doing this build for my daughter. She's very small and if genetics is any indication, she will end up in the shorter height range. I'm working with a friend now to shorten my Mcrees chassis to fit her and still extend to my 12.5" LOP.

Whatever cartridge I end up going with, it will be for both of us to use. I looked at the 6mm BR and watched a guy on my target run 3 197-199 6X stages at the match in New Holland. Trace was very good so I got to compare his trajectory with a 308 in the same lane on the next relay. Pretty amazing difference. I'm just not sure about the MV getting me to 1000-ish. I hadn't really considered 6x47 but now that I'm looking at it it may be a better bet.

For now the 223 will go into the chassis and we'll plink on the 200 line at AGC and out to about 400 on steel at the farm. That should be fine for this summer and we'll try and do the build in early fall.

I appreciate the info.

For a midrange gun, 6mmBR is hard to beat. My father shot a 197 on his first string with the new gun, its almost cheating vs his .223 last year.

Shooting out to 1k is a little tough with the 6mmBR. There are better cartridges than the 6x47 out to 1k, however its a trade off with recoil.

Barrel life is within 500 rounds between the BR and 6x47... one shoots 30gr of powder (Varget) and the other 39 (H4350). I shot a friends 6x47 last weekend, and I couldn't feel a difference between my BR. However both guns are 20+lbs. Keep that in mind too

 

[axshon]

Looking at the numbers I found on a scout.com thread it looks like 6x47 with a 105/107 will net ~3000 FPS. That's definitely a solid LR contender. Precisionrifleblog.com also shows it as #2 in PRS for 6mm and #4 overall. I doubt recoil would be a problem in that range and I could go with a lighter bullet when/if she decides to shoot the 3x600. I have lots of time to noodle on it fortunately. Looking forward to the stock being finished and getting her behind the .223.

Best part of all this for me is my wife is fine spending the money if its to get the kids more involved in the hobby so even a barrel burner wouldn't be a huge problem. She's looking forward to shooting it as well.

 

[Russ D]

Looking at the numbers I found on a scout.com thread it looks like 6x47 with a 105/107 will net ~3000 FPS. That's definitely a solid LR contender. Precisionrifleblog.com also shows it as #2 in PRS for 6mm and #4 overall. I doubt recoil would be a problem in that range and I could go with a lighter bullet when/if she decides to shoot the 3x600. I have lots of time to noodle on it fortunately. Looking forward to the stock being finished and getting her behind the .223.

Best part of all this for me is my wife is fine spending the money if its to get the kids more involved in the hobby so even a barrel burner wouldn't be a huge problem. She's looking forward to shooting it as well.

That's exactly why most of my builds these days are for the kids. I'll be following to see which way you eventually go in case I want to do something similar for my daughter. I suspect she will be ok shooting the .223 for at least a few more years. I'd love to shoot F-class myself one of these years, but her soccer schedule keeps me too busy to consider it yet.

 

[BradMacc82]

Russ, all you have to do is be able to spare one Sunday. Most of New Hollands Matches are on Sundays, looking at their schedule. They appear to have one on a Saturday as well in Sept., the 17th.

I can tell you, it's a nice range, and the people axshon and I met are good people.

 

[Biggfoot44]

I'm not totally clear on the parameters herw. Is it :

1. Simply for daughter to shoot on the range, primarily for recreation and general marksmanship?

1. Daughter to shoot now, yet also be suitable for eventual hunting for deer-ish game ?

3. For daughter to shoot now, and eventually shoot Class F or similar competion ?

4. Class F -ish rifle for you, but daughter able to fire also ?

Annnnd. I my be notorious for what biggfootette fired at what age growing up, but she was always big for her age, and tall as a quasi grown-up. But sometimes size and developement is more important than the calender. Might be better to remain with .22lr until she picks up another cpl inches and another 10-15 lbs. Or at the least you that rifle in original.223 before rebarrelling.

 

[jimbobborg]

An M4 style rifle in 6.5 or 6.8 would not be a bad idea.

 

[FlatsFlite]

The common .243 Winchester will hang with the best of the best plus it is a versatile hunting round for small to medium sized game. With the right load and high BC bullet, you'll have less wind drift and drop than most of the "better" rounds.

 

[axshon]

I'm not totally clear on the parameters herw. Is it :

1. Simply for daughter to shoot on the range, primarily for recreation and general marksmanship?

2. Daughter to shoot now, yet also be suitable for eventual hunting for deer-ish game ?

3. For daughter to shoot now, and eventually shoot Class F or similar competion ?

4. Class F -ish rifle for you, but daughter able to fire also ?

Annnnd. I my be notorious for what biggfootette fired at what age growing up, but she was always big for her age, and tall as a quasi grown-up. But sometimes size and developement is more important than the calender. Might be better to remain with .22lr until she picks up another cpl inches and another 10-15 lbs. Or at the least you that rifle in original.223 before rebarrelling.

Some of all the above except for hunting. This rifle will always be too heavy for her in the field. If/when she decides to compete on her own she will get her own rig but for now we will share this one. Budget doesn't permit a collection of precision rifles.

 

[axshon]

The common .243 Winchester will hang with the best of the best plus it is a versatile hunting round for small to medium sized game. With the right load and high BC bullet, you'll have less wind drift and drop than most of the "better" rounds.

Yep, its a consideration. It has a larger case capacity so it ought to run faster but I've read the barrel life is in the 1500-2000 range and recoils a bit more than 6x47L. Up-side is that .243 has a lot more brass options.

 

[Speed3]

Yep, its a consideration. It has a larger case capacity so it ought to run faster but I've read the barrel life is in the 1500-2000 range and recoils a bit more than 6x47L. Up-side is that .243 has a lot more brass options.

Barrel life is the downside of a .243 for sure.

 

[FlatsFlite]

2000 to 2500 in competition accuracy closer to 4000 for hunting accuracy my experience.

 

[lazarus]

Something I am on the cusp of looking in to. My oldest is 8 and I am just working at introducing him to hunting and shooting. I got a single shot 20ga youth for me, I mean him, a couple of weeks ago. It needs refinishing and more than anything the butt pad replaced. After 60 years it is hard as a rock and starts to hurt my shoulder after 50rnds through it for trap. I just got a slip on butt pad to add LOP for when I am using it and cushion. I figure with some reduced recoil rounds to start with it should be fine for trap and squirrels for his first year shooting then move to standard shells.

With a new pad it should be fine for him. He can use my 22lr now (hasn't yet) as it is fairly short LOP (12.5"? I think) and he is well above average size for his age (he is 53" and 69lbs). I am thinking of getting something like a patriot in .243 win as another he/me rifle for when I'll be comfortable taking him hunting deer in another couple of years and he'll probably fit an adult rifle okay by then (he is on track to be an easy 58-59" by the time he is 10, even if it is a little big. Won't take him long to grow in to it fully.

My 2 year younger son is built like my older son, accept a bit more athletic and inclined towards outdoors stuff. They are both looking like they'll be comfortably over 6 feet, maybe more like 6'2" or 6'3".

My biggest concern is my 4 year younger daughter. She is a pip squeak. She'll be lucky if she is 60lbs when she is 10. Her mom was the same way, tracking light and small until teen years when she finally started catching up to average height and weight.

 

[4g64loser]

axshon,

6BR is a great round (i'm currently debating repiping one of my .22-250 varmint guns to 6br, 6dasher, 6br-dx, or 6xc). i've shot a couple light varmint class guns (10.5lbs limit) with light bullets and they are unbelievable tackdrivers with little to no work at the loading bench. in a tighter twist, the improved wildcats based on the 6br are solid contenders. the Dasher, if my memory serves, currently holds the 6 target 1000yd aggregate record. I would steer that way due to the EXCELLENT lapua brass available. get a NO TURN neck, and choose either the standard br or one of its many wildcats. one of the reasons I'm going to the BR case is a bit more accuracy than my 22-250s (they have all been solid .3-.4 guns, with groups down into the .2s on VERY good days, but i want better) and a bit more wind resistance than the light to midweight .224 pills. recoil on a 14+ pound rifle in any of the BR cases is going to be easy to handle. the .243 (and its improved big brother the .243 AI) are killer rounds in tactical match but they waste barrels too fast for me. I shoot a .308 with a can in the tactical game for now.

the 6-6.5x47 isn't something i've had any real experience with other than shooting one that another guy had. nice rig, but I'd still go with a BR case (original or wildcat) as the x47 and creedmoor cases burn more powder for not a lot of velocity increase. the guys i've talked to are getting 3000fps out of Dashers without cratering or other pressure signs with the 105-108gr match bullets. None i have talked to have shot the 115 DTAC yet, but Im sure they will try em eventually.