452 bullets and expansion

[Archeryrob]

So I filled the barrel up at lunch time and shot off a few round.

Previous lead bullet - .933 wide on largest spot - 252.44 grains
1/2 and 1/2 bullet - .807 widest spot - 257.72 grains
Wheel Weight bullet - .769 widest spot - 254.66 grains

So below,
Left - Pure lead and what I use that did not exit.
Center - 1/2 and 1/2 lead 7-8 bhn
Right wheel weight allow - 10 bhn


front of bullets - top lead, center 1/2 and half, bottom wheel weight


Base of bullets - top lead, center 1/2 and half, bottom wheel weight


Height of bullets top 1/2 and half, bottom wheel weights

 

[Archeryrob]

I am thinking WW lead does just about good on expansion and should size and try them. Have to wait until December to test again on an animal except sighting them in again.

 

[Archeryrob]

Went out today and shot the 30.06 in with cast bullets. Sighted in at 100 yards and rang the gong at 200 yards. All went great there.
Pulled out the muzzle loader and couldn't even hit the target at 100 yards with the new WW bullets. Moved to 50 yards and ground shooting and all over the target and inconsistent. I gave up.

Might try tomorrow in the yard at 50 yards and set three targets for WW, half and half and lead. I though pure lead was bad because it expanded and did not give an exit hole. At least it was accurate!! Sized WW bullets shot like crap today out of the Acura. More testing and commiserating to come.

 

[outrider58]

Went out today and shot the 30.06 in with cast bullets. Sighted in at 100 yards and rang the gong at 200 yards. All went great there.
Pulled out the muzzle loader and couldn't even hit the target at 100 yards with the new WW bullets. Moved to 50 yards and ground shooting and all over the target and inconsistent. I gave up.

Might try tomorrow in the yard at 50 yards and set three targets for WW, half and half and lead. I though pure lead was bad because it expanded and did not give an exit hole. At least it was accurate!! Sized WW bullets shot like crap today out of the Acura. More testing and commiserating to come.

I can't recall ever losing a deer from a ML shot with no exit wound. I did experiment with .50 light sabots, once. I shot a deer that I had mouth grunted to a stop at 70 yards. Perfect broadside shot, deer ran about 40 yards and collapsed into a creek gully. I was like "YES!". A couple seconds later, he climbs out the other side of the gully and runs through the adjacent field.

With a fresh layer of an inch of snow, his blood trail through the first field(yes, I said first field) was about 5 foot wide. Blood was spraying out both sides of him. By the time I got to the next tree line, the blood had slowed to a steady drip. When he made it to the next tree line, his blood disappeared. I literally searched about a square mile. Not another drop and two days later, no circling vultures.

I always feel better when a bullet expends all its energy inside the animal. It's all about kinetic shock.

 

[Archeryrob]

Yeah, I was feeling like, lead killed two and I can't hit shit with these bullets. So tomorrow we waste more lead, 777 and primers just to see why and what is best.

 

[Archeryrob]

So this was trying to shoot wheel weights in the back yard at 45 yards.

Shot cardboard, four clicks left.
Shot bottom paper. Four clicks left.
Shot top paper. Said WTF and gave up.

This CVA Accura will not shoot wheel weight lead sized to .452 in a sabot. It’s all over for elevation and I can’t get accuracy

 

[Archeryrob]

Then switched to lead.

Shot, high adjusted down.
Shot, shot hit the center.

Back to shooting lead and no exit holes. at least I’ll be able to hit one and not wound it.

 

[outrider58]

Then switched to lead.

Shot, high adjusted down.
Shot, shot hit the center.

Back to shooting lead and no exit holes. at least I’ll be able to hit one and not wound it.

You'd think that with such variance in accuracy, you might see a little key-holing. Not the cases.

 

[Uncle Duke]

You'd think that with such variance in accuracy, you might see a little key-holing. Not the cases.

I have to wonder if the sabot itself is somehow the culprit here. Would be curious to know what happened with a different brand of sabot.

 

[Doco Overboard]

Increase the powder charge in 10 g increments and see what results you get with the ww's made bullets using your sabots.
The softer lead made bullets may be expanding inside the sabot consistently allowing the sabot to do its job and the harder metal is not.
Each shot is out of truth from the next or even the preceding one.
CVA rifles traditionally have deeper grooves than other rifles that have been button rifled based on the ones I worked with.

 

[Archeryrob]

The softer lead made bullets may be expanding inside the sabot consistently allowing the sabot to do its job and the harder metal is not.

This is what I was assuming also. The soft lead you can see deformation of the base to show the ring in the sabot and the slots in the sabot. The lead is expanding on firing to fill these spots. The recovered bullets for Wheel weights does not have the same marks in the base. Which means it is not expanding the same.

I think I am going to put the bullets aside for now and have the scope zeroed for lead. Maybe try WW's again next spring with different powder charges. I'm not sure it will help though.

On a side note I measured a power belt bullet I had some years back. The skirt is doing all the rifling work and the actual bullet is acting like the bore riding end of a cast bullet where they are reduced in the nose. The bullet measure .496 and the skirt measures .502 so it seems to me the rifling depends on the expansion to grab it. The skirt will expand and grab it good from the gas expansion.

 

[lazarus]

IDK, I've shot plenty of deer with modern sabot bullets and up to 150g of 777 and did not get pass through on all of them.

A lot depends on the shot placement. As long as you are getting good expansion without hitting major bones, you are getting good wound channels. What's not to like?

These were taken out of dead deer(not wounded and got away wink-wink).

Personally Rob, I think you're on the right track.

View attachment 436853

This. And to OP, 80gr of 777 is a pretty light charge.

I run 105gr in my CVA Wolf, of BH209. That's about 40% more muzzle energy than what 80gr of 777 produces. I've run 240gr .429 Hornady XTP's with sabots and now run 300gr. The 240s sometimes pass through, sometimes don't. The 300s, all one deer I've shot with one, passed right through after hitting front leg bone and ribs on both sides and out the other side. BIG exit wound.

I'd say with your results, stick with what you've got. If it is a bad hit, you aren't likely hitting much bone anyway, so likely it'll exit. If it is a good hit and it isn't exiting, you aren't blood trailing far anyway. Maybe the only scenario where it is a lethal hit and you'd need the blood trail and you'd be hitting a lot of bone would be a quartering away shoulder shot that hits the shoulder, ribs, and just one lung. Then it might go far, die, and the bullet hit a lot of bone.

 

[lazarus]

This is what I was assuming also. The soft lead you can see deformation of the base to show the ring in the sabot and the slots in the sabot. The lead is expanding on firing to fill these spots. The recovered bullets for Wheel weights does not have the same marks in the base. Which means it is not expanding the same.

I think I am going to put the bullets aside for now and have the scope zeroed for lead. Maybe try WW's again next spring with different powder charges. I'm not sure it will help though.

On a side note I measured a power belt bullet I had some years back. The skirt is doing all the rifling work and the actual bullet is acting like the bore riding end of a cast bullet where they are reduced in the nose. The bullet measure .496 and the skirt measures .502 so it seems to me the rifling depends on the expansion to grab it. The skirt will expand and grab it good from the gas expansion.

That is odd there. I've had no problems with accuracy using sabots in my CVA wolf with jacketed bullets, and not a chance in heck the bullet is filling out the sabot to engage the rifling better.

I did find that .429/.430 sabots and .44 magnum XTP bullets give better accuracy with my Wolf. Best is with the 300gr XTPs. They'll shoot just under 1MOA 3 shot groups. 240s yield about 1.2MOA. .451" XTPs and sabots were giving me around 1.5MOA (using a 1-4x scope).

 

[Archeryrob]

The skirt on the sabot also has an expansion collar. You would think that would be all that is needed as it works for powerbelts. I could not get accuracy with it and the harder alloy and gave up for now.

Below are the sabots I bought

https://www.cabelas.com/shop/en/harvester-50-caliber-sabots