452 bullets and expansion

[Archeryrob]

So I shot two deer yesterday with my 50 caliber Accura. A doe and a buck, both left side through the ribs. Bullets expanded very well but both lodges in the right side skin and did not exit. They are pure lead, 255 grail round nose, flat point 45 colt bullets.

So my buddy and I are talking and he suggests I cast them in wheel weights, probably air cooled and use them to get a better blood trail.

What’s your opinion?

 

[Sundazes]

need more antimony.

 

[Inigoes]

Have you actually weighed the bullets on a scale from that batch? Do they weigh 255 grains?

What does the expanded bullets weigh? How much weight was lost/retained?

 

[Pale Ryder]

need more antimony.

At least 3% right. Maybe more powder. What volume of powder? But if DRT no need for exit wound.

 

[Brickman301]

Have you actually weighed the bullets on a scale from that batch? Do they weigh 255 grains?

What does the expanded bullets weigh? How much weight was lost/retained?

These are good questions.
I’ll add: how many grains of powder are you using? FFFG or FFFg or equivalent? What was the estimated distance when the bullet made impact? Did the bullet hit bone(s).

With some more information we can make better suggestions

 

[Archeryrob]

Unfired bullets are 261 grains and one captured bullet is 232 grains. I am using 80 grains of 777 in 2f in a CVA accura 50 caliber.

Both deer were shot in the ribs and partial hit on the ribs bones but mostly tissue.

Doe ran about 70 yards spewing blood only from the left side and not hard to track. Buck when 40 yards and rolled and thrashed a bit and expired. I did not blood trail him as I saw him roll

 

[dannyp]

Unfired bullets are 261 grains and one captured bullet is 232 grains. I am using 80 grains of 777 in 2f in a CVA accura 50 caliber.

Both deer were shot in the ribs and partial hit on the ribs bones but mostly tissue.

Doe ran about 70 yards spewing blood only from the left side and not hard to track. Buck when 40 yards and rolled and thrashed a bit and expired. I did not blood trail him as I saw him roll

looks pretty good to me , over 90% retained weight ?

 

[outrider58]

IDK, I've shot plenty of deer with modern sabot bullets and up to 150g of 777 and did not get pass through on all of them.

A lot depends on the shot placement. As long as you are getting good expansion without hitting major bones, you are getting good wound channels. What's not to like?

These were taken out of dead deer(not wounded and got away wink-wink).

Personally Rob, I think you're on the right track.

 

[outrider58]

looks pretty good to me , over 90% retained weight ?

I agree dannyp(it rhymes)

 

[Archeryrob]

I water tested these bullets and got the best expansion of anything I have cast. I was supper excited about killing something with them. They are dead and left a blood trail. If they were bleeding out both side, it would have been a hell of a blood trail. The bullet basically wrecked everything near it up until the far side skin.

More velocity (powder) would only make it expand more, IMO. I shot 200 grain projectiles into water at 900 fps and there 255 (or 261's) into water and mushroom all out because they were going 1800 fps, or close.

I'm still questioning if I should cast 10 in wheel weights and kill one in December just for scientific comparisons. But these worked!

 

[outrider58]

I'm no ballistics expert, but won't too high a velocity have an opposite effect? I agree with tweaking the round. That's what it's all about, but I think you are pretty dang close to where you want to be.

 

[remrug]

I like two holes when I shoot a deer. I stopped shooting Power belts because of that. Most deer didnt require tracking ,but I had some tricky blood trails on a couple. That being said.....its hard to argue about dead deer

 

[Archeryrob]

Agree, it kills nice. So who votes leave it be, or Try wheel weights air cooled in December?

I am thinking of trying the latter as the pot has WW lead in it from casting 9mm hollow points. Just need to heat it up and cycle the mold a couple times for experiment and get some for testing and killing. I'll have to shoot one into the water barrel and see how much it expands. WW round points didn't do crap at 900 fps out of the 9mm and HP's only flowered.

I was told by some for 9mm to cut some WW lead 1/2 and 1/2 with lead to soften it but should still get bullets that do not fly off and expand better. Having trouble with the bullet alloy calculators I got from casting bullets and need to ask them. Lead is shown as 5bhn, but calculator starts all math at 8.6 bhn. I calc 1/2 ww at 12 and lead at 5, but it says the bhn is 10 and that seems off. I got to ask questions.

 

[John from MD]

So I shot two deer yesterday with my 50 caliber Accura. A doe and a buck, both left side through the ribs. Bullets expanded very well but both lodges in the right side skin and did not exit. They are pure lead, 255 grail round nose, flat point 45 colt bullets.

So my buddy and I are talking and he suggests I cast them in wheel weights, probably air cooled and use them to get a better blood trail.

What’s your opinion?

Pure lead is needed in patched ball muzzleloaders but is too soft for modern inlines. Air cooled wheelweights (if you can find some that aren't zink) will work just fine and leave an exit hole.

 

[outrider58]

Agree, it kills nice. So who votes leave it be, or Try wheel weights air cooled in December?

I am thinking of trying the latter as the pot has WW lead in it from casting 9mm hollow points. Just need to heat it up and cycle the mold a couple times for experiment and get some for testing and killing. I'll have to shoot one into the water barrel and see how much it expands. WW round points didn't do crap at 900 fps out of the 9mm and HP's only flowered.

I was told by some for 9mm to cut some WW lead 1/2 and 1/2 with lead to soften it but should still get bullets that do not fly off and expand better. Having trouble with the bullet alloy calculators I got from casting bullets and need to ask them. Lead is shown as 5bhn, but calculator starts all math at 8.6 bhn. I calc 1/2 ww at 12 and lead at 5, but it says the bhn is 10 and that seems off. I got to ask questions.

I'm all for experimentation(a leftover from the seventies?) and I know to love to tinker. You've established a good deer killing bullet. I am afraid if you go too soft, bone hits may suffer, but who knows? Nothing ventured, nothing gained.

 

[Archeryrob]

Pure lead is needed in patched ball muzzleloaders but is too soft for modern inlines. Air cooled wheelweights (if you can find some that aren't zink) will work just fine and leave an exit hole.

It is in a sabot and not in contact with the rifling and they do shoot very well. I tried soft lead when I first got it with REAL bullets and they were fliers. The thin rifling just stripped out the lead.

I can find them, I got the mold and will cast them. Just debating on alloy type. Looking to try and ww batch and ww/lead batch to soften it. Want to do that for 9mm hollow point and water test them all.

 

[Brickman301]

If you’re looking to get a more consistent pass throughs, maybe try making your bullets from 50/50 pure/wheel weights. Or drop your powder charge some. As long as they stay accurate. I’ll take accuracy over anything ever time.

I also had problems with the Lee REAL bullets using pure lead. I powder coat them, then lube like normal. The flyers went away.

 

[Doco Overboard]

I cast all my REAL bullets about 50/50.
Never had a complete pass through even with close shots.
Right to where I can just barely put a mark with my thumbnail into them. And pressing real hard at that.
I use them in my side lock T/c’s and some of my Knight in line rifles.
In my smokeless ML I use 452’s and never had a pass through with those either.
I’m not sure I need one either with all the deer I shot over the years.
I would rather have all the energy expended in the deer I think.

 

[Blacksmith101]

If you want to learn more about alloys head over to Cast Boolits Forum, they have forgot more about casting then you will ever know.

Start in their Lead and Lead Alloys section:

Lead and Lead Alloys

Galena , the silver stream itself, the base metal of the craft. Pb, Linotype, monotype, Wheel Weights and the rest!

castboolits.gunloads.com

 

[Archeryrob]

Back got sore butchering so went and saw my buddy after lunch then came home and heated the bottom pour melting pot.

Cast the 45 bullets in wheel weight and half/half WW/pure lead. Wheel weights casting at 258 and Half/half casting at 265

Then changed molds and cast hollow point 9mm bullets with the half/half alloy to test in water for expansion when it gets dry enough that I can powder coat them.