.40 S&W question

[RaVis]

Why do people insist on saying that the .40 S&W is a solution to a problem that didn't exist? Is this because of the existence of the .45 ACP?

Thanks!

 

[04RWon]

Your starting a shitwar lol.

Im in!

.40's cool and plenty of ppl use it. Plenty of PD's and other agencies like it too

 

[krucam]

Why do people insist on saying that the .40 S&W is a solution to a problem that didn't exist? Is this because of the existence of the .45 ACP?

Thanks!

Nah, everyone knows .40 is better than .45. It just may be the most perfect caliber ever.

 

[BradMacc82]

This ought to be interesting.

(short version) - .40 S&W came to be since some limp-wristed fools couldn't handle the 10mm in all it's glory.

It serves no purpose IMO.

 

[balttigger]

Things happen for a reason. If it was worthless, no one would buy it and it would die a slow, horrible death (.327 Magnum anyone?). There will always be fanboys of each (9mm, .357Sig, .40S&W and .45ACP) that swear there is no need for any other caliber but theirs.

Baloney! (edited for my protection)

It has been proven time and again in the streets, shot placement trumps caliber. I would take a .22WMR that I can place rounds with precision over a super mega mankiller that the best I could do is a nick to the thigh. Haters are just gonna hate.

 

[j8064]

Oh...not again...Really?

 

[BradMacc82]

.40 Short & Weak (the term favored by Jeff Cooper, comparing the cartridge to the full-house 10mm Auto from which it is derived)


I like that saying.

 

[boss66tcode]

In a nutshell: SHTF in Florida during a violent bank robbery (1986, Miami IIRC). During the debriefings and after action plan, it was determined that had those who intervened had a different caliber pistol, things might have worked differently. This led the FBI to start looking around for a "better" caliber. The "better" caliber they chose was the 10mm in a design smith and wesson called the 1006. One problem though, the FBI has to train MANY officers, with varying levels of shooting skill. 10mm was determined to be too tough to manage for the large # of officers with varying levels of training.

Smith and Wesson chopped the case down on the 10mm and called it the .40 smith and wesson. Some people don't like the snapppy recoil, and with some of the 9mm rounds that are now out there, don't think its justified. Nonetheless, LEO's in a great many departments carry it. Some curse it, some praise it.

In the end, it still goes bang like both 9mm and 45, but gives you a mag capacity closer to a 9mm mag with an increase, albeit marginal increase in performance (say some).

All the haters chime in if you want, but this is a readers digest version and as objective as I can be on the topic.

I think the round works fine, some people say its, gay, some people swear by it, some people swear at it.

Oh, and I hear Clandestine really likes sub compact 1911's in .40 - haha.

 

[RG99]

Its like comparing a 1911 to a glock everyone has their preference and for me it's the .45 acp. But I'm a 1911 guy.
They're both man stoppers and I wouldnt want to be shot by either.

45 acp>.40 s&w

 

[Lou45]

Nah, everyone knows .40 is better than .45. It just may be the most perfect caliber ever.

I couldn't have said it better...............(those that know me can place the correct smiley icon here).

Oh...not again...Really?

LET THE GAMES BEGIN................... (Couldn't find the popcorn icon, j8064 share some with me?)

In a nutshell: SHTF in Florida during a violent bank robbery (1986, Miami IIRC). During the debriefings and after action plan, it was determined that had those who intervened had a different caliber pistol, things might have worked differently. This led the FBI to start looking around for a "better" caliber. The "better" caliber they chose was the 10mm in a design smith and wesson called the 1006. One problem though, the FBI has to train MANY officers, with varying levels of shooting skill. 10mm was determined to be too tough to manage for the large # of officers with varying levels of training.

Smith and Wesson chopped the case down on the 10mm and called it the .40 smith and wesson. Some people don't like the snapppy recoil, and with some of the 9mm rounds that are now out there, don't think its justified. Nonetheless, LEO's in a great many departments carry it. Some curse it, some praise it.

In the end, it still goes bang like both 9mm and 45, but gives you a mag capacity closer to a 9mm mag with an increase, albeit marginal increase in performance (say some).

All the haters chime in if you want, but this is a readers digest version and as objective as I can be on the topic.

I think the round works fine, some people say its, gay, some people swear by it, some people swear at it.

Oh, and I hear Clandestine really likes sub compact 1911's in .40 - haha.

Yep, his junk gets REAL HARD when he rubs 'dem on his junk. Com'on Chad, let's gopherit.

Its like comparing a 1911 to a glock everyone has their preference and for me it's the .45 acp. But I'm a 1911 guy.
They're both man stoppers and I wouldnt want to be shot by either.

45 acp>.40 s&w

I don't want to be shot by any caliber firearm again; that hurts and leaves a mark. I know but don't ask how I know.



I see while I was typing the aforementioned, Chad chimed in. Well I must say someone or something has his tounge 'cause he's not being very vocal. Chad, are you feeling OK, BRO???

 

[straightsilver3]

This ought to be interesting.

(short version) - .40 S&W came to be since some limp-wristed fools couldn't handle the 10mm in all it's glory.

It serves no purpose IMO.

This! My 10mm Colt Delta Elite was the most awesome pistol I ever owned

 

[BradMacc82]

I own (1) .40, a Beretta 96D. That's the ONLY gun I'll ever own in that caliber.

To be fair - I didn't even buy it, I inherited it.

 

[lesteral]

Things happen for a reason. If it was worthless, no one would buy it and it would die a slow, horrible death (.327 Magnum anyone?). There will always be fanboys of each (9mm, .357Sig, .40S&W and .45ACP) that swear there is no need for any other caliber but theirs.

Baloney! (edited for my protection)

It has been proven time and again in the streets, shot placement trumps caliber. I would take a .22WMR that I can place rounds with precision over a super mega mankiller that the best I could do is a nick to the thigh. Haters are just gonna hate.

Concur 100%

and if you really need it, why not the .50 cal? Largest industry-produced: Performance Center S&W 500 5-shot single action revolver built on a Smith & Wesson X-frame. This one sports a 7.5-inch barrel. 275 grain through 600 grain and larger ammo is available .

 

[RaVis]

Gentlemen,

Thank you for your insight so far. I read about the FBI incident which caused the rearmament of the bureau and the introduction of the 10mm cartridge. Full power 10mm was too tough to handle for some then came the 10mm Lite. Manufacturers realized that they could do with the same power load in a smaller cartridge so that 9mm frame pistols could be used with it.

I understand the development and progression of the .40 S&W.

But, I still don't understand why this caliber is perceived not to fit a niche.

More interesting to me is that most PD's were issued revolvers chambered for .38 Special between the 1920's and up to late 80s. The LEO's in the time period mentioned undoubtedly experienced firefights that rivaled some of the ones that we see publicized... yet they stuck to the .38 Sp for a long time. So, the criminals became better armed and armored? They always have been.

And, to those that insist that shot placement is key - makes me wonder how many "baddies" were put down with "lucky" shots. How often have we seen real police footage of the bad guys pinning down the LEO's with a wall of massive firepower and the LEO's shooting over their heads without aiming. With all the chaos, fear, and adrenaline you have to be kidding yourselves if you think you'd be taking aimed shots.

I can only rationalize that well trained persons who do this sort of work for a living and train constantly can block the human emotion out of it - I'm thinking the Special Operations people in our Armed Forces.

 

[huesmann]

Since .38 Special is basically a revolver round, there were a lot of people who thought revolvers were more reliable than semi-autos. That's why .38SP persisted so long in service up to the late '80s. That, and the Saturday Night Special.

 

[RaVis]

Since .38 Special is basically a revolver round, there were a lot of people who thought revolvers were more reliable than semi-autos. That's why .38SP persisted so long in service up to the late '80s. That, and the Saturday Night Special.

.357 Magnum saw an almost instantaneous enrollment into service upon its release with the police departments patrolling major highways/interstates. Of course, vehicle/windshield penetration being primary reasoning as we now know. However, "regular" patrol stayed with .38 Sp.

In the FBI incident, officers carried .357 Mag revolvers loaded with .38 Sp. +Ps.

 

[browning guy]

That's some funny stuff right there.....


I don't know about you Doc. but I think we are seeing a warmer and softer Lord Chad.

 

[OLM-Medic]

Here is my honest opinion on that caliber.

It is NOT a bad caliber. In fact, it is probably pretty good. However, I do not see a point in the caliber when 9mm and .45 ACP are available.

People say .40 S&W is a good combo of the velocity of 9mm and the size of .45, yet .40 S&W has more perceived recoil than .45 ACP. What is the point of that? If I'm going bigger than 9mm, I'm going to .45ACP. I don't see a point in this middleman caliber. Modern guns in .45ACP even have mag capacities of 13-15 rounds/mag, so thats not a reason either.

As far as "knock down power" I hate to piss people off but there really is no such thing because it is so marginal when compared to the other calibers. People don't magically die because one round is slightly (emphasis on slightly...because it is) larger than another...it just doesn't work out that way. You have to punch the right holes in the right places (accuracy) and depend on multiple shots (accuracy AND speed...which is where recoil comes in to play) regardless of caliber.

Most of my hatred for the caliber is not because it is bad. It will perform well, but I don't see a point in it compared to the others. My hatred really comes from the fanboys who know nothing about guns, yet get it because the police use it. That and when cops I know talk about how .40 S&W is superior to 9mm because of its "stopping power." Give me a break!

9mm is my favorite.

 

[rico903]

Weren't the FBI armed with revolvers in that bank robbery shoot out incident or am I thinking of an earlier incident?

 

[DaemonAssassin]

FWIW I am a .40S&W and .45ACP fanboy, but I will try to stay neutral with this post.

IMO the .40 S&W is a more capable round than the 9mm in regards to weight, velocity, and kinetic energy imparted on impact. Granted that is my opinion based on testing I have done using 1 gallon jugs filled with water (don't have access to ballistic gelatin for real ballistic testing in regards to penetration, expansion, fragmentation, etc...) and a chronograph. As for the .40S&W having more perceived recoil than a .45ACP, I'd have to disagree unless the weapon tested happens to be a Glock. Comparing a Springfield Armory xD .40S&W to a Springfield Armory xD .45ACP, I have found that the xD40 has less perceived recoil than the one chambered in .45ACP. Glocks on the other hand will always transmit a lot of recoil back to you due to the design not having much if any in the way of a recoil reduction system. The H&K P2000 chambered in .40S&W seems to have less perceived recoil than any other 9mm pistol I have ever shot, due to the recoil reduction "washer thing" (I have no idea what the technical name for it is) that can freely move on the guide rod spring.

Technically the .40S&W is a compromise between the 9mm and the .45ACP due to the size, powder charge, velocity, bullet weight, and ammo capacity (for the time it was adopted by the FBI). At the time of adoption by the FBI, there were few, if any "hi-cap" pistols chambered in .45ACP that would fulfill the requirements the FBI had set down.

While shot placement is 95% of the problem when stress shooting, the other 5% is the type of ammo you are using. If a cop has to put down a perp jacked up on PCP or some other illegal designer drug that inhibits pain, they would want to use the biggest caliber that they could carry sufficient ammo for, without sacrificing lethality (stopping power). For proof of that concept, some research as to the origins and the reason why the .45ACP was developed/invented, you might be surprised with the info you find about the experiences of American servicemen in the Moro Rebellion. The link should help you get started on that research should you wish to do it.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/45ACP

In the end it all comes down to personal preference and how well you can match your shooting style to a pistol and caliber. I have used a H&K P2000 in .40S&W along with a Glock 22 in .40S&W, but with perceived recoil I would say that the P2000 is better, hands down. In this day in age with break ins being what they are, it is up to you to find what fits you the best, not what others will guide you towards. Me personally I will swap between .40S&W and .45ACP for anything related to self defense/home defense. My girlfriend on the other hand being a n00b to shooting, I recommended she shoot a 9mm and see how that worked for her, and now she is going to buy a 9mm for herself while she is at my place when I am at work. As time goes on with her, I'll let her shoot my .40's when she feels she is ready, then let her shoot my .45's when she is ready for those.

Best of luck with your choice in choosing the right caliber for what you want it to do.