2 stage triggers for AR-15

[Maverick0313]

My preference is two stage triggers. If you're looking for a decent two stage trigger at a good price, have a look at Rock River National Match triggers; they're tough to beat for the money.

+1....have a RRA tmatch trigger.....super.....

 

[WSM]

FYI Maui any trigger pull under 3lbs I consider to be "dangerous" unless it is solely a bench gun. If the AR is going out into the woods or will be used for home defense go with a heavier trigger.

 

[bullbarrel]

Ok so I'm browsing around and I see 2 stage triggers for the AR-15.
What do they do better than the generic 1 stage?
Are they worth it? Just want to hear what exactly they do and what a Noob like me would feel if anything in difference of shooting.

I was looking at these:
http://sigforum.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/350601935/m/2740016502

do a trigger job on the one you got and save your money

 

[metalman3006]

I have the 3# single stage Timney on my Larue AR, nice and smooth and I also like the look of it.

 

[Mark C]

I bought an LPK from Bill Springfield (http://www.triggerwork.net/) with a 3 lb trigger. This gun won't ever leave the bench so I wasn't worried about the light pull. I'm a fan. I've never touched a 2-stage trigger, but this is definitely a helluva lot better than a standard LPK trigger. Virtually no take-up, very sharp, crisp break. The 3 lb is enough that it takes more than a strong wind to set it off, but light enough for bench duty. He does a 4 lb version as well if you want a little more weight.

I think the 4 lb is $39 if you send him your existing parts. For such a small investment, I'd tune up what you have before dropping 4x that much on a 2-stage.

 

[shrpshtrjoe]

I have the 3# single stage Timney on my Larue AR, nice and smooth and I also like the look of it.

+1......... I have a 4# in the colt and a 3# in the RRA . Great triggers

 

[MauiWowie]

do a trigger job on the one you got and save your money

How?

 

[MauiWowie]

Does this really work?

 

[alucard0822]

Does this really work?

this is how the trigger normally works

Yes and no. Bending the springs does make the trigger pull lighter, and putting extra strain on the hammer can smooth out some of the machining marks on a rough trigger aka the "GI trigger job". There is a risk of damaging the parts, and being the legs of the hammer spring hold the trigger pin in place, bending them out of position can make it possible for the pin to walk out, and of course the possibility of light strikes with hard primers.

To really improve the GI trigger, you have to modify it in an exacting way. With trigger work there are a number of tradeoffs that have to be weighed, reliability, safety, durability, weight, takeup, travel, and reset. The primary sear has a positive engagement, meaning that as the trigger is pulled, the hammer is retracted slightly aggainst the hammer spring, increasing weight, and increasing the reliaiblity of the engagement, making inadvertent firing less likely. If the sear surface is stoned or filed to a neutral angle, then only the friction and light trigger reset spring hold it in engagement, as the trigger is pulled, the hammer stays in the exact same position, negative engagement would mean that the hammer actually moves slightly forward and a portion of the hammer springs weight overcomes the trigger reset spring, making the trigger very light, but prone to accidental firing if bumped. Depending on the mating angle you can change the weight without changing springs. By reducing the engagement angle, you reduce the weight, and a little engagement will not adversely affect reliability for most uses.

You also have the engagement depth, basically how deep the sear sits in the hammer notch, deeper engagement cause more creep, being the sear has to slide out of the notch, it also makes the trigger more durable and less apt to fire when bumped. Of course decreasing engagement decreases creep, and makes the trigger "crisper", you can reduce the engagement to some degree without ill affects, the best way IMO is to drill and tap the bottom rear of the trigger for a set screw, or tap the grip screw hole the rest of the way, and put a small set screw in to act as a stop. This will basically prevent the sear on the trigger from engaging fully, reducing engagement, and shortening creep.

Limiting overtravel is one of the best things you can do to improve a trigger, it not only gives a solid "feel' to the trigger, as it stops after breaking the shot, reduces bad trigger habits, and reduces reset distance, but also has few "bad" things that occur when it is reduced, the only problem is that when dirt gets into it, or parts wear, if set to tight the stop can engage before the trigger breaks, drilling, tapping, and putting a set screw in the flat face of the safety is easiest, or carefully drilling and tapping the front of the sear area of the trigger works too, with a longer set screw contacting the inside of the lower just ahead of the trigger cutout.

There are lighter springs available that reduce pull weight, but increase the chance of a misfire with hard primers, polishing all contact surfaces helps smooth the pull, and reduces weight by reducing friction. There is also safe operation to consider, the disconnector may have to be stoned to engage deeper to prevent hammer follow and double fires when metal is taken off of the trigger sear, the set screws cannot interfere with anything, and the surface should be a smooth radius to prevent digging into the lower. KNS pins also help, being the parts move aound them instead of the pins turning in the holes in the lower, they make the pull more consistent. Drilling and tapping the trigger also requires very hard drill bits with a lot of pressure, and good taps, being it is hardened steel, and difficult to drill or tap, and all set screws need loc-tite to keep from coming loose. Some smiths use a small bead of weld precisely ground to build up a surface instead of set screws, it is more difficult to "adjust", but cannot come loose. And with any trigger work, or adjustment you may have to remove, adjust and reinstall the parts a number of times to get them just right.

Basically the stock trigger can be made nice, and basic stoning, polishing, and a couple set screws are cheap, but in a rifle build that may end up costing a thouand or two, a good drop in trigger for $200 can really create a solid centerpeice for an accurate and fast rifle that all the rails and optics revolve around. One thing that many aftermarket triggers adress is the short sear engagement axis, meaning the sear on a GI trigger mates very close to the pin it rotates on, requiring a lot of pressure on the contact surface, many aftermarket triggers use a sear that grabs a hook further back with less pressure on the surface, making it easier to have a light trigger with sufficient engagement, and in many cases you have adjustment screws built in, it also gives you the option of a 2 stage trigger, which I prefer to single stage in a tactical rifle. I am kinda a trigger snob, I belive a trigger makes or breaks a gun, as it is the part that you are going to use and feel more than any other, and I want that trigger to feel good, and match the rest of the guns capabilities, all things considered, a couple hundred for a good aftermarket trigger can be a small price to pay for the improvement it brings, and even low cost modification of the GI trigger can be worth much more than it's cost.

 

[bean93x]

mch28 can do some amazing work to a stock AR trigger.

 

[CKOD]

+1 on the SSA for a 2 stage trigger

As for a good single stage, IVe felt 700's with nice single stage triggers, and 1911's with good single stage triggers. But as you can see in the animation Alucard posted, the safety on an AR stops the trigger from moving, if you have a super crisp singe stage, with no takeup, and no overtravel, it makes it harder to have a secure safety. Add some takeup, and add a spring to load that, and its a 2 stage trigger, which still feels great, and has a very secure safety.

 

[Eudaimonia]

Alucard,

Your long, well-thought, informative posts make my day.

Thank you sir.

 

[canuck]

Chad makes a good point. My experience has been:

(1) the stock trigger in DPMS LPKs (given the price, I have to assume they are crap)
(2) a Timney in my bench gun (which was heavenly compared to my AR triggers)
(3) the new Geissele SSA two-stage trigger that came about because of the thread I linked you to.

So I don't have any experience with a "good" single-stage trigger, but I've also come to trust Canuck and JeepDriver when it comes to ARs. (Nothing against you, Chad, just haven't had the pleasure of shooting with you yet.)

So if you get a chance, maybe one of the guys on here will let you shoot their "good" single- and two-stage triggers and you can make up your own mind. Say the word and you're welcome to join me at the range anytime.

The Geissele SSA (which is a single) is rocking in 3 of my ARs and the DMR is in my 18" SPR which is a grendel with a Mark 4 M1 4.5x14. The Geisseles are simply the best. They cost more but you get more. I've shot the shit out of my SSAs and they still are as crisp as ever.

 

[MrWhiteRabbit]

The Geissele SSA (which is a single) is rocking in 3 of my ARs and the DMR is in my 18" SPR which is a grendel with a Mark 4 M1 4.5x14. The Geisseles are simply the best. They cost more but you get more. I've shot the shit out of my SSAs and they still are as crisp as ever.

The SSA's a single? Mine has a short takeup before a light break and very little reset distance. I thought a single-stage had effectively no motion to the trigger pull. PM me if you're free to get together this week and compare triggers so I make sure I'm using the right terms?

 

[alucard0822]

The Geissele SSA (which is a single) is rocking in 3 of my ARs and the DMR is in my 18" SPR which is a grendel with a Mark 4 M1 4.5x14. The Geisseles are simply the best. They cost more but you get more. I've shot the shit out of my SSAs and they still are as crisp as ever.

Haven't seen a single stage version, the only SSA's I have seen are a simple non-adjustable 2 stage, about a 3lb short first stage and 2# second stage, little overtravel and reset. Hell of a trigger though, and being there are no screws to come loose, it would be a good way to go for a defensive rifle.

 

[clandestine]

Giessele Triggers are certainly 2 stage. Unless they have a new model I havent handled they are 100% 2 stage unless modified on are installed in an out of spec lower.

I still stand by my opinion that the Giesselle is not worth the price tag since I can make a Factory FCG shine for 1/4 of the cost.

 

[Jimbob2.0]

I have an RRA two stage coming for my next upcoming build, just got the trigger kit from Eagle arms ($89 shipped) as I have about 4 extra LPK's laying around I can get the other parts from.

 

[sigrug17]

+1

Agreed totally, RRA 2 stage is a great trigger. Not that expensive either. One of the best cost to performance triggers out there.

I have RRA 2 stage triggers in all but one of my guns. I like the crisp break they have over stock.

I don't want a 3 or 4 lb trigger in my defensive gun, I want a strong trigger. A quality trigger is money well spent.