1911s are “obsolete.”

[PorP]

I didn't wade through the whole thread - just the first page - but I was thinking the same thing. "For combat" changes things, because there are guns that are specifically designed for combat and have a better track record of reliability. CC isn't really a factor when considering "for combat" - that's a whole other matter.

I'm not sure the 1911 will ever become obsolete - it's still going strong 118 years after its adoption by the US Army, so JMB must have done something right. As I type this, I know that my plans for my next firearm purchase is a 1911, for whatever that's worth.

I'd point out that John Browning also designed the 1911 in accordance with MIL-SPEC for combat.

Not to say it's better than the soldier sidearm..... no wait, I am, i real don't like sig's. Not to say 1911's are better than the double stack fnh, h&k, berretas, etc, Would more ammo help, after 120 rounds of .223, maybe in some corner cases.

 

[Mr.Blue]

While you will occasionally find a 1911 from any gunmaker that's unreliable...just like with any gun...the basic problem with the 1911 platform is its success. The pistol is so modular and there's such an aftermarket of custom tacticool parts too many Bubbas out there mix and match parts of varied quality without any fitting and expect the pistols to run like a scalded cat...and when they won't Bubba blames the pistol and not himself for screwing up the pistol.

The same can be said for the AR platform and others that have a big following and a big aftermarket base.

John Browning had it right. The only real improvements since have been technical such as improved metallurgy and details such as better sights and a few other things.

I’m a big 1911 fan, but I trust today’s modern striker-fired guns more than any 1911. If I had to trust one handgun with my life it would be a G19/17. I love my CZs and 1911s, but the ugly Glocks are so reliable.

If I had to pick one 1911 it would be a Wilson Combat CQB Tactical LE.

 

[trickg]

I'd point out that John Browning also designed the 1911 in accordance with MIL-SPEC for combat.

True, but what was required of a combat sidearm in the early 1900s wasn't quite the same thing as now - we've had 100 years to learn about what works, what doesn't, and what a pistol needs to be able to do in a modern theater of combat.

I'm not trying to downplay the 1911 - IIRC, the spec-ops units went back to the 1911 when the Beretta was designated as the US Military Sidearm - but only to say that currently there are probably some options for combat that outpace the 1911.

 

[PorP]

True, but what was required of a combat sidearm in the early 1900s wasn't quite the same thing as now - we've had 100 years to learn about what works, what doesn't, and what a pistol needs to be able to do in a modern theater of combat.

I'm not trying to downplay the 1911 - IIRC, the spec-ops units went back to the 1911 when the Beretta was designated as the US Military Sidearm - but only to say that currently there are probably some options for combat that outpace the 1911.

I think the requirement was not shooting your own horse... lol

 

[TexDefender]

Let's be honest, any weapon new or old, can as Murphy's law states malfunction or break. If we are in "Combat" and we are down to the pistol, yeah, crap went side ways and we are up the creek. I'm personally a rifleman, that's my favorite tool. Each tool has it Pro's and Con's. The 9mm ammo has come a long way, it is better than when it first came out. A 9mm has more rounds generally in a magazine. But does that make it better? Not necessary. Look at just how fast people will dump a magazine. Just because you can throw a ton a lead downrange doesn't make it better, or ensure you will even hit anything. The 1911 will never be obsolete, it has served this nation and others with distinction, in multiple theaters, under a severe environmental conditions. I don't personally own one yet, I will one day. The model 1911, if you will excuse me, has a "natural point of aim". It fits great in the hand, and it throws ash trays. Hits like a tank fell on them. No one is going to get up quickly if hit with one of these rounds. Has a proven combat record and is reliable as with any weapon if properly maintained. And if all else falls it make a real handy club. I do believe there are double stack .45's, not a lot, but they are growing. Training is what matters, the more drills the better. More weapons you can master the better. The more you understand the limits of your firearm the better you will be. Use the weapon you feel most comfortable with, this debate is like which came first the chicken or the egg.

 

[dist1646]

My personal opinion.... I absolutely love to shoot them, they are beautiful guns, and they scream "America"... but I would never own one for any serious purpose. It's over a hundred years old. Technology has changed. There are better options now.

Technology has changed? Frame, slide, barrel, magazine. Case, primer, powder, bullet. I don't think that technology has significantly changed except most are no longer using revolvers or muzzle loading handguns.
The fact that the design is over 100 years old simply proves that the design was and still is sound. Reminds me of the saying, " Never mess with an old man. He is too old to fight so, he will just kill you."

 

[echo6mike]

<snip>
1911s are obsolete as combat handguns.
<snip>

As combat handguns? I'd have to say yes, they are. For special use cases in combat, maybe not, but for general issue yes.

Agreeing with everyone who's pointed out why, and about "if you need a handgun in combat, things are already FUBAR" etc.

For personal use no, but that's a different question.

OP, you should make this a poll and really get people wound up!!



SFMF,

 

[Pinecone]

Yes, so obsolete that most every major manufacturer makes one. Even though they make other "latest and greatest" pistols.

So obsolete that Special Ops and Marine Force Recon picked it.

I bought my first 1911 in 1977. Back then, people were calling them obsolete. Funny thing is, as above, there are more manufacturers making them than were back then.

As for 7 rounds, hmm, most of my mags are 8, +1 in the chamber, means actually 9. And 10 round mags are easily available and work VERY well, for an 11 round capacity. And if you want more, you can have a 1911 in 9mm. But 9 rounds of AIMED fire beats 20+ rounds of spray and pray every day.

If you think you are outgunned with less rounds than the other guy, maybe you should practice more.

Now, I like other pistols. I am REALLY liking my new SIG M17. But my first, and best love, is the 1911.

 

[PorP]

Yes, so obsolete that most every major manufacturer makes one. Even though they make other "latest and greatest" pistols.

So obsolete that Special Ops and Marine Force Recon picked it.

I bought my first 1911 in 1977. Back then, people were calling them obsolete. Funny thing is, as above, there are more manufacturers making them than were back then.

As for 7 rounds, hmm, most of my mags are 8, +1 in the chamber, means actually 9. And 10 round mags are easily available and work VERY well, for an 11 round capacity. And if you want more, you can have a 1911 in 9mm. But 9 rounds of AIMED fire beats 20+ rounds of spray and pray every day.

If you think you are outgunned with less rounds than the other guy, maybe you should practice more.

Now, I like other pistols. I am REALLY liking my new SIG M17. But my first, and best love, is the 1911.

They also make the double stack 1911's which are 13 + 1 on 45, which negates the capacity debate.

 

[joppaj]

I don't know anyone that does not have at least one 1911 , they are work horses and symbolic handguns .

We've never met in person of course...

I don't own a semi-auto handgun that isn't a Glock. There are many fine designs and the 1911 is one but just like the High Power and the P-38 it isn't the state of the art anymore. For those advocating its combat virtue due to its military service I'd ask you to consider that Enfields, Mausers and Mosin-Nagants all had long service histories as well. They'll all still kill you dead, but so will a well used rock. There are better options.

(Someone will be along shortly to tell me about their uncle's time as a Mossad sniper with a 10/22 and their SEAL buddy with a Browning Buckmark. Only hits count, I get it.)

 

[danb]

Double stack wonder guns for combat are the past.

The future of the combat handgun is a 40 gigawatt laser.

 

[dist1646]

How many rounds does it take to kill, when they are already dead? Can they be killed more dead? Biggest problem I have with the 1911 is trying to choose which one out of the one's I have! I think we should include .45 single action revolvers as an option.

 

[Occam]

... but just like the High Power and the P-38 it isn't the state of the art anymore ...

Yup. I keep - for the same reasons I do a 1911 - a lovely Walther PP. As long as you don't let it bite your hand because you're holding it wrong, it's a pretty good DA/SA pocket .380 - certainly thousands of European detectives and others who carried one will tell you they staked their lives on it. But if I want a pocket .380 on me to carry today? It'll be something like Ruger's LCP2, instead of that slightly treacherous hunk of heavy Walther steel. But I'll be damned if I'll part with it! It's cool. Just like a 1911, and for the same sort of reasons. Doesn't have anything to do with why or what I'd carry today in defense of my family's lives.

 

[onedash]

It should also be pointed out that just because the military is using it doesn't make it the best of anything. Companies bid and a winner is picked. The best might have been too expensive to win. I don't know if it's still true but not long ago they said the 30-30 had killed more deer than any other rifle on earth. That certainly doesn't make it the best deer rifle. But it was cheap enough and effective enough to be used by lots of people.

 

[dist1646]

It should also be pointed out that just because the military is using it doesn't make it the best of anything. Companies bid and a winner is picked. The best might have been too expensive to win. I don't know if it's still true but not long ago they said the 30-30 had killed more deer than any other rifle on earth. That certainly doesn't make it the best deer rifle. But it was cheap enough and effective enough to be used by lots of people.

There is a thread over on accurate shooter. com about using a 30-30 for 600yds.! Obviously, it is not a lever action.

 

[PorP]

We've never met in person of course...

I don't own a semi-auto handgun that isn't a Glock. There are many fine designs and the 1911 is one but just like the High Power and the P-38 it isn't the state of the art anymore. For those advocating its combat virtue due to its military service I'd ask you to consider that Enfields, Mausers and Mosin-Nagants all had long service histories as well. They'll all still kill you dead, but so will a well used rock. There are better options.

(Someone will be along shortly to tell me about their uncle's time as a Mossad sniper with a 10/22 and their SEAL buddy with a Browning Buckmark. Only hits count, I get it.)

Knew it would not be long before the glockonian law showed up.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=v8JztaCeqIM

 

[Racer Doug14]

Knew it would not be long before the glockonian law showed up.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=v8JztaCeqIM

I dont think he likes Glock. Why would still have the thumb safety engaged, if you are looking for a bad guy?

 

[Mr.Blue]

Until someone comes out with a ray gun, 1911s will not be obsolete.

 

[randomuser]

It should also be pointed out that just because the military is using it doesn't make it the best of anything. Companies bid and a winner is picked. The best might have been too expensive to win. I don't know if it's still true but not long ago they said the 30-30 had killed more deer than any other rifle on earth. That certainly doesn't make it the best deer rifle. But it was cheap enough and effective enough to be used by lots of people.

Me personally, I agree with your statement about the military picks things based on contracts and money does have something to do with it.

I will also add that if you want to learn how to break something issue it to an infantry unit. So what you end up having is a product that becomes heavily tested in the toughest real world conditions. Then and only then can you see how it will stand up to abuse. Issuing an item, It's the best test I can think of for durability.

 

[SRD]

How many rounds does it take to kill, when they are already dead? Can they be killed more dead? Biggest problem I have with the 1911 is trying to choose which one out of the one's I have! I think we should include .45 single action revolvers as an option.