MSP 77r e-portal goes live 1-1-17

swinokur · Jan 17, 2017

Because MD wanted to be the POC for handgun purchases when the NICS was established. 13 other states do the same thing.

State does handguns
FFL does long guns

BUFF7MM · Jan 17, 2017

j_h_smith said:
This also brings up another issue that I never understood. Why does the dealer do the 4473 when they don't do the NICS check for a handgun?

Per federal law they must keep a 4473 for a term of at least 20 years, or if they go out of business they must be turned in the the ATF.
And since they have it logged in their bound book they need a paper trail to go with the firearm. Just my thoughts.

Biggfoot44 · Jan 17, 2017

Two different things. 4473 existed long before an instant check was dreamed of.

mopar92 · Jan 17, 2017

j_h_smith said:
This also brings up another issue that I never understood. Why does the dealer do the 4473 when they don't do the NICS check for a handgun?

A 4473 is required by law for an FFL to dispose of a firearm. Some states have a "memorandum of understanding" between the state, FBI and NICS where a valid concealed carry permit suffices in place of a 4473.

MD has a MOU for MSP to be the Point of Contact through NICS for handgun transfers. The dealer initiates the background check by having the buyer fill out the 4473 AND submitting a 77R to the MSP LD. MSP LD does their checks, calls NICS and recieves a NICS Transaction Number (NTN). The NTN is recorded on the 77R and forwarded to the FFL who records it on the 4473. They also record for long gun sales but its done the same day and if you watch the dealer you can see them record it on the 77R along with the firearm information.

j_h_smith · Jan 17, 2017

Buff7mm said:
Per federal law they must keep a 4473 for a term of at least 20 years, or if they go out of business they must be turned in the the ATF.
And since they have it logged in their bound book they need a paper trail to go with the firearm. Just my thoughts.

I do understand the process, but since the dealer doesn't do the NICS for a handgun transfer, why is a dealer responsible for this? I do understand the dealer doing the 4473 on a long gun because they are performing the NICS thus needing to do the 4473. But with a handgun, the MSP is doing the NICS. Why isn't the MSP doing the 4473 and holding it for 20 years?

j_h_smith · Jan 17, 2017

swinokur said:
Because MD wanted to be the POC for handgun purchases when the NICS was established. 13 other states do the same thing.

State does handguns
FFL does long guns

That's my point. Why isn't the state the official holder of the 4473? They did the NICS. Since the dealer does the NICS on a long gun, I do understand that they must do the 4473.

The MSP does the NICS, so why aren't they holding the 4473?

j_h_smith · Jan 17, 2017

Biggfoot44 said:
Two different things. 4473 existed long before an instant check was dreamed of.

Yes, the 4473 is the Federal form. Since the MSP does the NICS for handgun transfers, they should be the holder of the handgun 4473, not the dealer.

j_h_smith · Jan 17, 2017

mopar92 said:
A 4473 is required by law for an FFL to dispose of a firearm. Some states have a "memorandum of understanding" between the state, FBI and NICS where a valid concealed carry permit suffices in place of a 4473.

MD has a MOU for MSP to be the Point of Contact through NICS for handgun transfers. The dealer initiates the background check by having the buyer fill out the 4473 AND submitting a 77R to the MSP LD. MSP LD does their checks, calls NICS and recieves a NICS Transaction Number (NTN). The NTN is recorded on the 77R and forwarded to the FFL who records it on the 4473. They also record for long gun sales but its done the same day and if you watch the dealer you can see them record it on the 77R along with the firearm information.

I know that's how it's done, but my question is why is the dealer in the 4473 business, when they do not do the NICS for the handgun. I have no issues with the dealer holding the 4473 for a long gun purchase because they do the NICS on that long gun, but not a handgun purchase. The dealer is acting on behalf of the MSP when they (the MSP) complete the NICS check and give the dealer permission to transfer the handgun to the buyer.

mopar92 · Jan 17, 2017

j_h_smith said:
I know that's how it's done, but my question is why is the dealer in the 4473 business, when they do not do the NICS for the handgun. I have no issues with the dealer holding the 4473 for a long gun purchase because they do the NICS on that long gun, but not a handgun purchase. The dealer is acting on behalf of the MSP when they (the MSP) complete the NICS check and give the dealer permission to transfer the handgun to the buyer.

Because a dealer is required by law to have a 4473 for each firearm they dispose of. Even if it comes from their personal collection. So they initiate the 4473 and MSP completes it.

Biggfoot44 · Jan 17, 2017

4473 existed long before there WAS any real time check. For many years the pen and paper 4473 was simply placed in a file cabnet maybe 3min after customer signed it, and stayed there gor 20yrs, or until an audit or trace.

Further -
4473 is a required by and dealt with by ATF.
NICS is run by FBI .

j_h_smith · Jan 17, 2017

mopar92 said:
Because a dealer is required by law to have a 4473 for each firearm they dispose of. Even if it comes from their personal collection. So they initiate the 4473 and MSP completes it.

I know you're quoting the law as it is written. I'm looking for you to look outside the box. Since the MSP does the NICS, why aren't they holding the 4473?

Biggfoot44 · Jan 17, 2017

Because MSP isn't an FFL, and doesn't sell any guns.

They have an MOU with the FBI to be a middleman for certain NICS checks. They have no relationship with ATF .

Hawkeye · Jan 17, 2017

Buff7mm said:
But the MSP is the one running the NICS check not the dealer on a handgun purchase.
But I definately agree with you that you shouldn't have to go twice.

Shoot you're right. Slipped my mind that MSP does NICS for handguns.

Pinecone · Jan 17, 2017

FFBWMD said:
Yes, federal form when initiating the transfer. Remember your answering questions and signing it to attest your ability to own a firearm. Second signature is when you actually take possession.

Sent from my SCH-I545 using Tapatalk

It still gets signed before delivery. So Feds should be OK.

You answer similar questions on the 77r, and MD has nothing to do with the 4473, so they should be happy.

And MD does not see/handle the 4473, so why does it matter when it gets filled out.

Pinecone · Jan 17, 2017

j_h_smith said:
That's my point. Why isn't the state the official holder of the 4473? They did the NICS. Since the dealer does the NICS on a long gun, I do understand that they must do the 4473.

The MSP does the NICS, so why aren't they holding the 4473?

Because the Feds say the DEALER has to do and maintain the 4473.

As has been said, the 4473 has been around a long time. And applies to ALL states.

kalister1 · Jan 18, 2017

Why do you wait to get the HQL and the very next day have to wait for a background check to pick up the pistol you just bought?
Why do you have to wait for a background check every 30 days when you buy a pistol, after you have bought one every 30 days for 15 years?
Why does anyone think this is all about making "MY" life easier?

BUFF7MM · Jan 18, 2017

kalister1 said:
Why do you wait to get the HQL and the very next day have to wait for a background check to pick up the pistol you just bought?
Why do you have to wait for a background check every 30 days when you buy a pistol, after you have bought one every 30 days for 15 years?
Why does anyone think this is all about making "MY" life easier?

It's Maryland
Why would you expect anything different from them.

Hawkeye · Jan 18, 2017

kalister1 said:
Why do you wait to get the HQL and the very next day have to wait for a background check to pick up the pistol you just bought?
Why do you have to wait for a background check every 30 days when you buy a pistol, after you have bought one every 30 days for 15 years?
Why does anyone think this is all about making "MY" life easier?

Exactly. Because it's not about making life easier. The entire system is contrived to make it more difficult to purchase handguns, so less people will purchase handguns.

scattervision · Jan 18, 2017

kalister1 said:
Why do you wait to get the HQL and the very next day have to wait for a background check to pick up the pistol you just bought?
Why do you have to wait for a background check every 30 days when you buy a pistol, after you have bought one every 30 days for 15 years?
Why does anyone think this is all about making "MY" life easier?

From kalister1:
Why do you wait to get the HQL and the very next day have to wait for a background check to pick up the pistol you just bought?

Because the prohibitors for an HQL are different than the prohibitors for a 77R.

Why do you have to wait for a background check every 30 days when you buy a pistol, after you have bought one every 30 days for 15 years?

Because you could go out and do something in that 30 day period that could make you prohibited. Even after 15 years of buying handguns, you could get a PBJ for a crime of violence on your criminal history and voila...you're prohibited.

platoonDaddy · Jan 18, 2017

Hawkeye said:
Exactly. Because it's not about making life easier. The entire system is contrived to make it more difficult to purchase handguns, so less people will purchase handguns.

We bitch about Md, son-in-law retired NJ LEO emailed me the following:

The last week in Oct, I applied for my handgun permit, the approval date was Jan 7 but the State Police didn’t call me until Jan 13. Sure is a long wait… In fact the wait is so long, that I actually got 2 permits this time. One for the G19 and another one just in case. They are good for 90 days and can be extended another 90 on request.

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