Police stop and you are legally transporting a non-serial number firearm?

RoadDawg · Apr 30, 2018

Hawkeye said:
It is what he wrote. You're interpreting it, just like I am. You're just interpreting differently than I am.

I would argue that my COTUS rights matter not one whit if the cop decides to put his weapon in my face for whatever reason. In that moment, it helps me not a bit to know that I've got 1st, and 4th, and 5th amendment rights on my side if he decides to twitch his index finger. This is hypothetical, because I've never put myself in a situation where a cop would have felt the need to do that, and again, I'm extremely polite to officers when I interact with them, but that's because I recognize that they hold *all* of the power in that particular moment. Most of the cops that I have ever interacted with have been great guys who are doing a sometimes very shitty job, but there have been a few who have been *total* dickheads, and once in particular I was worried for my own safety at the beginning of the stop, though to his credit that particular cop eventually calmed down, realized that it was a ******** stop that he didn't have any PC for and let me go without so much as a warning.

Argue what you wish... It is your perspective and opinion from what ever has been your life.

However, As I told another...

I have been on both sides of the issue. Having owned and operated semi-tractors coast to coast and Canada prior to beginning my career in LE... I was on the other side of those stops more than a few times. I treat others the way I want to be treated. I did so throughout my career in LE and now that I am retired... it is still just as important to me that folks NOT "expect" to be treated badly by every LEO they meet. Being stopped by a LEO is already a stressful thing for nearly every person... including Off Duty and Retired LEOs. That expectation of being treated badly is wrong... and it sets folks up for extra stress before they even get stopped.

That includes telling someone that their COTUS rights do not matter when they most assuredly DO. And FWIW... I was personally able, on at least two separate occasions, to remove individuals from LE when they thought otherwise.

As far as the "pointing a gun in someones face" ... it always comes up in these "Police" threads...

Funny thing... I HAVE seen LEOs charged with violation of civil rights... and yet...

When any miscreant/thug/robber/burglar/criminal etc... does assault another person and takes their rights from them during the commission of a crime... WHY DO WE NEVER CHARGE THE CRIMINAL WITH VIOLATION OF THE VICTIMS CIVIL RIGHTS? Why do THEY get a pass? I believe that when any criminal forcibly takes away the rights of another... be it Life, Liberty, or any other... THAT criminal is ceding their own rights in the process and should accept that what one takes from another... one should be willing to surrender them self. Punishment for crimes should be tailored to fit the crime committed.

esqappellate · Apr 30, 2018

RoadDawg said:
Argue what you wish... It is your perspective and opinion from what ever has been your life.

However, As I told another...

That includes telling someone that their COTUS rights do not matter when they most assuredly DO. And FWIW... I was personally able, on at least two separate occasions, to remove individuals from LE when they thought otherwise.

As far as the "pointing a gun in someones face" ... it always comes up in these "Police" threads...

Funny thing... I HAVE seen LEOs charged with violation of civil rights... and yet...

When any miscreant/thug/robber/burglar/criminal etc... does assault another person and takes their rights from them during the commission of a crime... WHY DO WE NEVER CHARGE THE CRIMINAL WITH VIOLATION OF THE VICTIMS CIVIL RIGHTS? Why do THEY get a pass? I believe that when any criminal forcibly takes away the rights of another... be it Life, Liberty, or any other... THAT criminal is ceding their own rights in the process and should accept that what one takes from another... one should be willing to surrender them self. Punishment for crimes should be tailored to fit the crime committed.

The short answer to "why" is that the thug is not acting "under color of law" at the time and the LEO is.

RoadDawg · Apr 30, 2018

esqappellate said:
The short answer to "why" is that the thug is not acting "under color of law" at the time and the LEO is.

That part makes NO difference to me Sir.

Color of law or NOT... A violation of one's COTUS rights is STILL a violation of their rights and the violator, once found guilty, SHOULD suffer the results of their actions.

Robert1955 · Apr 30, 2018

RoadDawg said:
That part makes NO difference to me Sir.

Color of law or NOT... A violation of one's COTUS rights is STILL a violation of their rights and the violator, once found guilty, SHOULD suffer the results of their actions.

Jumping into this conversation late, and not taking any sides, I do not expect a criminal to follow anyone rights because he is a criminal. A professional LEO on the other hand I would.

RoadDawg · Apr 30, 2018

Robert1955 said:
Jumping into this conversation late, and not taking any sides, I do not expect a criminal to follow anyone rights because he is a criminal. A professional LEO on the other hand I would.

So the criminal gets a pass... BECAUSE he is a criminal?

How does that possibly make any sense?

I don't expect one of my neighbors to rob anyone either... But I damn sure expect him to be charged with it when they catch him.

How would it be if we started expecting ALL of those who share this country with us... do abide by the same laws. :shrug:

Stop giving ANYONE a pass because they are a criminal or because they happen to be here illegally. :mad54:

Blacksmith101 · Apr 30, 2018

Wasn't there a case that a criminal could not be charged for not registering a firearm because, since he was a criminal, the registration would be self incrimination?

Criminals seem to have more rights than law abiding citizens.

StantonCree · Apr 30, 2018

Blacksmith101 said:
Wasn't there a case that a criminal could not be charged for not registering a firearm because, since he was a criminal, the registration would be self incrimination?

Criminals seem to have more rights than law abiding citizens.

Yeah dealt with a NFA case as i recall

boothdoc · Apr 30, 2018

That was when a person was being with possessing a short barrel shotgun while not being allowed to own a shotgun at all.
His fifth amendment rights said he didn’t need to register it because to fill out the application was self incrimination since he already knew he wasn’t allowed to own it.

Robert1955 · Apr 30, 2018

RoadDawg said:
So the criminal gets a pass... BECAUSE he is a criminal?

How does that possibly make any sense?

I don't expect one of my neighbors to rob anyone either... But I damn sure expect him to be charged with it when they catch him.

How would it be if we started expecting ALL of those who share this country with us... do abide by the same laws.

Stop giving ANYONE a pass because they are a criminal or because they happen to be here illegally.

No, the criminal, and any other law breaker does not get a "pass" You commit the crime you dam well should do the time. I am sick and tired of reading about all these "didnt do nuffins" that have a dozen arrests for gun and other violent crimes and they still are getting released, and myself who owns a scary black rifle is defamed and considered guilty only because I may have a few 30 round mags and more than 50 rounds of ammo for it.

TheOriginalMexicanBob · Apr 30, 2018

Blacksmith101 said:
Wasn't there a case that a criminal could not be charged for not registering a firearm because, since he was a criminal, the registration would be self incrimination?

Criminals seem to have more rights than law abiding citizens.

US vs. Haynes, 1968 (if I remember correctly)

Lev928 · May 1, 2018

mterry said:
That the overwhelming majority of off-duty LEO and citizens who were armed informed you that they were armed.

Because they did. But I see your point ... as in how many DIDN'T notify me. You got me on that one. Who knows how many armed law-abiding citizens I stopped didn't tell me. As for the off-duty cops, I generally assume they're armed whether they tell me or not.

Lev928 · May 1, 2018

I'm reading a lot of discontent for cops and questioning of their motives on here (Maryland focused). Quite frankly, as a veteran cop that strongly supports the 2A AND the right to carry by LAW-ABIDING citizens, I'm pretty pissed off. There's too much "what if" and general judgement on the law enforcement profession by people that have no idea what being a cop is ... much less the extensive training that comes with the job. Training AND experience vs. the right to carry is a separate issue which can be debated on another thread.

I have NEVER violated anyone's civil rights. I've already posted about my encounters with armed citizens and off duty cops. To that end, a violation of civil rights is a FEDERAL issue ... not a state or local issue. For those that proclaim otherwise, do some homework and get an education before you spew garbage on here.

The overwhelming majority of people shot by the police are CRIMINALS ... armed or not (discovered after the fact). We don't go around targeting, arresting and shooting law abiding citizens ... again, armed or not. Sure, there are some dumb cops that don't know federal, state and local laws and end up making a bad arrest. In the majority of those cases, the charges are tossed and have no affect on the the law abiding citizen's right to buy, own or carry a firearm. Do those cops need better training or find another job? Of course.

Don't forget what the police in this country do day and night ... they come in contact with the worst of the worst criminals and people of society. Most of you have never -- and will never -- have ANY such confrontations during your lifetime. Prepare for it? Of course. Judge others that have (cops or not)? You have no right and your opinion it mute.

Don't CREATE assumptions based upon your personal bias, fake news and the current downfall of this country. Instead, fight against it. Fight for your rights, the Constitution and this great country. Support the police. Yeah ... we're gonna be the first ones there to help you, not harm you.

Get some training. REAL training. Don't be the dumbass that just takes the mandatory minimum training required to buy a firearm or carry concealed. Those wannabes are the loudest barkers out there ... the under-trained, inexperienced gun owners and CCW holders. They have NO idea what they're talking about, regardless of the 2nd Amendment. In fact, if they were ever placed in a deadly force encounter, they would either freeze or flee instead of fight.

Talking tough about defending yourself is one thing. Real life deadly force encounters isn't Hollywood. If you've ever been shot at or pulled the trigger on a real human being, you already know.

A firearm is a TOOL. Whether for self-defense, hunting or recreation ... ownership, use and carry is not a just a complicit right. It's also a RESPONSIBILITY. Anyone that fails themselves -- and others -- of that responsibility will undoubtedly find themselves under the hammer of law.

Stop attacking and judging the police. They're your front line of defense and can be your best ally while your in this country.

NatBoh · May 2, 2018

Police are NOT my front line of defense. It is my responsibility and duty to be my own first responder.

Occam · May 2, 2018

Lev928 said:
Stop attacking and judging the police. They're your front line of defense and can be your best ally while your in this country.

In the sort of circumstances where the police can actually act as defense, sure! But the problem is they are - pretty much by definition - only there to clean up after something like an assault or robbery. Sure, a DUI stop is essentially a cop defending us all from a slow-motion assault by a drunk. But if I'm unloading a bunch of expensive gear from my truck and get approached by someone who thinks they'd like to relieve me of it on pain of injury or death, the police simply cannot be present to defend me against that sort of thing. That's on me.

We had to brandish a piece to run off a seriously altered guy who was pounding on our door at 2:00AM one morning. Called the cops right away, but then the guy wound up at our back sliding glass door and starting to try to beat down that door with a piece of pipe while shouting threats. The only thing that changed his mind was a good look at the muzzle of a gun. The police were almost 20 minutes in arriving. If that had been my wife home alone, the cops would not have felt, at all, like an adequate defense. That has nothing to do with my respect for them and the hard, thankless jobs they do. But they are only rarely our first defenders. There's a reason we call them "responders" in that context. Shit's already happened at that point.

rseymorejr · May 2, 2018

Lev928 said:
I'm reading a lot of discontent for cops and questioning of their motives on here (Maryland focused). Quite frankly, as a veteran cop that strongly supports the 2A AND the right to carry by LAW-ABIDING citizens, I'm pretty pissed off. There's too much "what if" and general judgement on the law enforcement profession by people that have no idea what being a cop is ... much less the extensive training that comes with the job. Training AND experience vs. the right to carry is a separate issue which can be debated on another thread.

I have NEVER violated anyone's civil rights. I've already posted about my encounters with armed citizens and off duty cops. To that end, a violation of civil rights is a FEDERAL issue ... not a state or local issue. For those that proclaim otherwise, do some homework and get an education before you spew garbage on here.

The overwhelming majority of people shot by the police are CRIMINALS ... armed or not (discovered after the fact). We don't go around targeting, arresting and shooting law abiding citizens ... again, armed or not. Sure, there are some dumb cops that don't know federal, state and local laws and end up making a bad arrest. In the majority of those cases, the charges are tossed and have no affect on the the law abiding citizen's right to buy, own or carry a firearm. Do those cops need better training or find another job? Of course.

Don't forget what the police in this country do day and night ... they come in contact with the worst of the worst criminals and people of society. Most of you have never -- and will never -- have ANY such confrontations during your lifetime. Prepare for it? Of course. Judge others that have (cops or not)? You have no right and your opinion it mute.

Don't CREATE assumptions based upon your personal bias, fake news and the current downfall of this country. Instead, fight against it. Fight for your rights, the Constitution and this great country. Support the police. Yeah ... we're gonna be the first ones there to help you, not harm you.

Get some training. REAL training. Don't be the dumbass that just takes the mandatory minimum training required to buy a firearm or carry concealed. Those wannabes are the loudest barkers out there ... the under-trained, inexperienced gun owners and CCW holders. They have NO idea what they're talking about, regardless of the 2nd Amendment. In fact, if they were ever placed in a deadly force encounter, they would either freeze or flee instead of fight.

Talking tough about defending yourself is one thing. Real life deadly force encounters isn't Hollywood. If you've ever been shot at or pulled the trigger on a real human being, you already know.

A firearm is a TOOL. Whether for self-defense, hunting or recreation ... ownership, use and carry is not a just a complicit right. It's also a RESPONSIBILITY. Anyone that fails themselves -- and others -- of that responsibility will undoubtedly find themselves under the hammer of law.

Stop attacking and judging the police. They're your front line of defense and can be your best ally while your in this country.

I think the major problem , here in Maryland, is that the larger departments in the state, Baltimore City, Baltimore County, MSP, etc. are led by highly political socialists that really don't think the serfs should be armed. They'd be more than happy to order people to confiscate guns. The individual cops on the street may feel differently but the leadership is what makes people nervous.

TheOriginalMexicanBob · May 2, 2018

rseymorejr said:
I think the major problem , here in Maryland, is that the larger departments in the state, Baltimore City, Baltimore County, MSP, etc. are led by highly political socialists that really don't think the serfs should be armed. They'd be more than happy to order people to confiscate guns. The individual cops on the street may feel differently but the leadership is what makes people nervous.

Very accurate observations. I found most street cops are generally ok with armed citizens even if they weren't gun guys themselves. Police Chiefs are beholden to the Mayor, the County Council President, Governor or whichever political boss appointed them to the job and they must follow his policies to keep their job.

Sheriffs, on the other hand, are elected by the citizens and are beholden to them, not some other political entity (well..the Attorney General maybe). Sheriffs are usually more reflective of the desires of the citizenry than police chiefs. You also find more independence from a Sheriff since he doesn't have to bend over for the mayor or whomever appointed him.

babalou · May 2, 2018

yup

rseymorejr said:
I think the major problem , here in Maryland, is that the larger departments in the state, Baltimore City, Baltimore County, MSP, etc. are led by highly political socialists that really don't think the serfs should be armed. They'd be more than happy to order people to confiscate guns. The individual cops on the street may feel differently but the leadership is what makes people nervous.

I do tell you what, My wife was driving in Bethesda where Old Georgetown ends and was with our younger daughter (18 at the time). This was around 11:00PM on a Friday night, IIRC. A cop sped up behind her, about cut her off and flashed his lights. My wife pulled over and when he talked to my wife, he actually told her he wished she was driving drunk. ok?! Make more of an ass of yourself. Monkey County cops can be cool but there are a lot of a$$h0les and especially the Rockville Sh!!tty cops.

freebird · May 3, 2018

The issues with the majority of police forces today isn't with any one officer. It's with the culture, magnitude, and empowerment of the force at large. Militarized, weaponized, and trained to protect me so I don't need to, which then justifies removing my personal rights. Add to that a culture where the end justifies the means. In general, our policitians have enabled our police forces (and many other government agencies and employees) to be a seperate class of citizen.

Lev928 · May 5, 2018

rseymorejr said:
I think the major problem , here in Maryland, is that the larger departments in the state, Baltimore City, Baltimore County, MSP, etc. are led by highly political socialists that really don't think the serfs should be armed. They'd be more than happy to order people to confiscate guns. The individual cops on the street may feel differently but the leadership is what makes people nervous.

You are absolutely 110% correct. Montgomery County is the PRIME example of corrupt political LAW ENFORCEMENT leadership in the state. Baltimore leads as a corrupt general environment overall.

Lev928 · May 5, 2018

babalou said:
I do tell you what, My wife was driving in Bethesda where Old Georgetown ends and was with our younger daughter (18 at the time). This was around 11:00PM on a Friday night, IIRC. A cop sped up behind her, about cut her off and flashed his lights. My wife pulled over and when he talked to my wife, he actually told her he wished she was driving drunk. ok?! Make more of an ass of yourself. Monkey County cops can be cool but there are a lot of a$$h0les and especially the Rockville Sh!!tty cops.

"Monkey County cops" and "Rockville Sh!!tty cops" ...

Yeah ... YOU are the problem with the fight for the Second Amendment ... not the cops. YOU ... and idiots like you .. that post garbage like this bring a bad name to the fight for the freedoms we're losing. You're NOT helping yourself or anyone else ... you're just making a mockery of yourself and like-minded fools. YOU ... and those like you ... are the downfall. Think it through for yourself before it's too late.

Let me guess ... you have a ten minute online course on firearms safety under your belt and MIGHT have shot a paper target once or twice in your life. YOU are the reason firearms are being restricted more and more each day in this country.

You are an embarrassment to the REAL firearms culture and fight in this great country. Get yourself squared away and then come back with some decency, education, experience and common sense.

Police stop and you are legally transporting a non-serial number firearm?

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