Beat to death: AK vs. AR

Nemesis · Apr 21, 2011

Russ D said:
I see the AK guys already making excuses. It seems like this will morph into something that allows the AK to not get embarrassed. What does steel cased ammo have to do with the rifles capabilities? You should get the best ammo you can find for each gun. OR use the military equivalent of the ammo that is used in combat. Also an Arsenal is a top of the line AK. An equivalent Ar would be a Colt, KAC, Noveske. What does cost have to do with the argument anyway? BTW part of the superiority of the AR is it's ability to adapt easily to multiple optic systems. I see you are already trying to eliminate that.

Oh and if you want to do it right, the same guy should shoot both weapons. Best candidate would be an average shooter with little experience with both weapons.

leveling the playing field by doing most of the tests using the same quality ammo, then doing a small portion of the test using higher grade match type ammo in both guns is not fair?

optics? i could mount any type of optics i want to the arsenal...

Russ D · Apr 21, 2011

I know I sound like an AR fanboy but that really isn't true. I think my next build is gonna be an AK. My only point is that I never see anyone being able to compete with an AK, but I read all the time about how they can from guys who have never tried. I do have much respect for the guys I've sen try it and fail. I know I'm only talking about 3-gun and not real battle situations but honestly none of the shots we do in 3-gun are all that tough. 6" plates at 200 yards should be easy with any effective weapons system. I'm not saying an AK can't do it either. Just that if it can I wanna see it happen. Oh and I have seen a few guys tear it up with AUG's which was pretty cool to watch.

Hol3shot · Apr 21, 2011

They are totally different rifles with different capabilities imho.

AK = Cheap rifle used in third world countries due to price and availability
AR = More expensive rifle used by 1st world countries with tons of money on their hands

Just about any rifle can be built into a tack driver nowadays by a good smith the right tools.

I like the idea of an AK being what it is, and an AR being the same. To insinuate they could ever be equal just isn't the case.

Russ D · Apr 21, 2011

Nemesis said:
leveling the playing field by doing most of the tests using the same quality ammo, then doing a small portion of the test using higher grade match type ammo in both guns is not fair?

optics? i could mount any type of optics i want to the arsenal...

Any testing with low quality ammo is worthless. This isn't a test to see which gun will shoot crap the best is it? I still suspect the AR would win, but I just fail to see what that would prove.

Russ D · Apr 21, 2011

I propose the best test would be to get two high quality rifles of each make. Arsenal AK, Colt AR of similar style. Then buy the same high quality ammo for each rifle. Keep them both basically standard off the shelf. Possible a red dot on each. Then find an average shooter with little experience with either. Hand him both rifles with a 30 round mag. Set up an 8" target at 200 yards. The rifle with the most hits wins.

Nemesis · Apr 21, 2011

Russ D said:
I propose the best test would be to get two high quality rifles of each make. Arsenal AK, Colt AR of similar style. Then buy the same high quality ammo for each rifle. Keep them both basically standard off the shelf. Possible a red dot on each. Then find an average shooter with little experience with either. Hand him both rifles with a 30 round mag. Set up an 8" target at 200 yards. The rifle with the most hits wins.

is this not what we are planning on doing?...silver bear is far better than the bottom of the barrel wolf...without costing an insane amount of money. if you want to buy me 100 rounds of lapua 7.62x39, go for it...but im not floating the bill for that, to ultimately prove nothing more than what using silver bear in both would.

if both rifles can pull 2" groups using the same ammo, then would that not show similar capabilities in accuracy between the two? i believe this would show the same result as seeing 1" groups using match ammo from both rifles.

Russ D · Apr 21, 2011

Nemesis said:
is this not what we are planning on doing?....

Like I said no crappy ammo.

JOBU · Apr 21, 2011

haoleboy said:
If i dare guess, the AR will be more accurate.
but after shooting 80,000 rounds, the AK will be more reliable.

After 80,000 rouds the AR will be dead.

Russ D · Apr 21, 2011

Nemesis said:
is this not what we are planning on doing?...silver bear is far better than the bottom of the barrel wolf...without costing an insane amount of money. if you want to buy me 100 rounds of lapua 7.62x39, go for it...but im not floating the bill for that, to ultimately prove nothing more than what using silver bear in both would.

if both rifles can pull 2" groups using the same ammo, then would that not show similar capabilities in accuracy between the two? i believe this would show the same result as seeing 1" groups using match ammo from both rifles.

Any rifle can only shoot as well as the ammo is capable of. Give me 4 moa ammo and my 3k custom SPR won't shoot much better than a Model 1 special.

Russ D · Apr 21, 2011

JOBU said:
After 80,000 rouds the AR will be dead.

Because AK barrels of made of unobtanium and can last forever and never lose accuracy even after 100k rounds.

Nemesis · Apr 21, 2011

Russ D said:
Any rifle can only shoot as well as the ammo is capable of. Give me 4 moa ammo and my 3k custom SPR won't shoot much better than a Model 1 special.

thanks for proving my point.

Russ D · Apr 21, 2011

Nemesis said:
thanks for proving my point.

I don't recall disagreeing with you. I said all along the AK needs better ammo. That's part of the problem with the AK shooters. They think Russian steel cased crap is worth shooting. Sure it will go bang but if you aren't hitting anything what's the point. Then they start going on about hitting man sized targets at 100 yards. I can do that with a sling shot, whats the big deal there.

Phoenix_55 · Apr 21, 2011

Good suggestions. We will both shoot both platforms to help eliminate shooters ability as much as possible.

I agree video is a must.

Russ, I respect your input. One of the biggest factors in the "AKs are inaccurate" arguments is the fact the most people who shoot AKs are not shooting ammunition of the same quality as most AR shooters are shooting. For instance, I may shoot quality mil surp ammo, whereas Joe the AK owner usually shoots Bear or Wolf ammo. This is why we are using same or close to same ammo in each platform. That said, I will be able to offer ATI M855 ammo. We need to secure some brass cased or milsurp ammo for the AK.

While during the test we will be shooting irons, we will also attach an aimpoint C3 to each platform and note any differences.

Yes, this test isn't going to be perfect but bear with us guys...we are working on modest salaries here.

Nemesis · Apr 21, 2011

Russ D said:
I don't recall disagreeing with you. I said all along the AK needs better ammo. That's part of the problem with the AK shooters. They think Russian steel cased crap is worth shooting. Sure it will go bang but if you aren't hitting anything what's the point. Then they start going on about hitting man sized targets at 100 yards. I can do that with a sling shot, whats the big deal there.

have i not said several times that a portion of our testing will be done with higher quality ammo? but baseline accuracy judged by using mid grade ammo?

Phoenix_55 · Apr 21, 2011

Russ, agreed. In addition to the crap steel cased we will also obtain some small amounts of match factory ammo.

I should add that neither I nor Nemesis have much experience with either rifle.

Russ D · Apr 21, 2011

You really need impartial shooters to make it as even as possible. Even quality milsurp ammo for an AR is far to limiting a factor here. Shooting 2-3 moa ammo out of a 1 moa rifle is basically leveling the playing field for the AK. You need good ammo if you wanna test what the rifles are capable of. Would you race two turbo cars on 87 octane if they needed 93 to make full power?

Inigoes · Apr 21, 2011

You will find where the AK lacks in accuracy, and the AR will lack in stamina

Hol3shot · Apr 21, 2011

Phoenix_55 said:
Good suggestions. We will both shoot both platforms to help eliminate shooters ability as much as possible.

I agree video is a must.

Russ, I respect your input. One of the biggest factors in the "AKs are inaccurate" arguments is the fact the most people who shoot AKs are not shooting ammunition of the same quality as most AR shooters are shooting. For instance, I may shoot quality mil surp ammo, whereas Joe the AK owner usually shoots Bear or Wolf ammo. This is why we are using same or close to same ammo in each platform. That said, I will be able to offer ATI M855 ammo. We need to secure some brass cased or milsurp ammo for the AK.

While during the test we will be shooting irons, we will also attach an aimpoint C3 to each platform and note any differences.

Yes, this test isn't going to be perfect but bear with us guys...we are working on modest salaries here.

Lol - I hear that.

Have fun with it. Either way it will be cool to see how it turns out with whatever you guys decide to use.
Sometimes things are done just because you can!

Russ D · Apr 21, 2011

Phoenix_55 said:
Russ, agreed. In addition to the crap steel cased we will also obtain some small amounts of match factory ammo.

I should add that neither I nor Nemesis have much experience with either rifle.

I'd have no problem donating 100 rounds of match quality loads for the AR. Not sure if I'm comfortable with someone else shooting my reloads though because of liability issues.

Russ D · Apr 21, 2011

Inigoes said:
You will find where the AK lacks in accuracy, and the AR will lack in stamina

Is there a torture test involved? I doubt any good AR would not pass a torture test with any amount of ammo we could afford to use.

Beat to death: AK vs. AR

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