What do we do after pulling the trigger?

MikeTF · Feb 18, 2011

squirrels said:
How do you plan on ascertaining that? You don't know if he's conscious or not...he could just be playing possum until you get close. Even if he is unconscious, your efforts could bring him back...his first impulse when he sees you sitting over him within reach is going to be...what??

You don't know. Chances are the guy is in total shock and irrational from just being SHOT...you don't know what he's going to try to do.

Don't put yourself in that position. It's a firearm, not a Star Trek phaser. It doesn't conveniently put him to sleep right away like in the movies, it just puts a hole in him. Whether he retains, loses, or regains consciousness in the process of "bleeding out" is not something you're going to be able to ascertain in the heat of the moment, and as long as he can move his arms he can choke the sh*t out of you or pull a weapon on you.

I'd just stay away.

I appreciate your well intentioned comments. I can understand that if you have no idea on how to defend yourself from a two handed choke, then you probably shouldn't get anywhere near the person that you just shot. Real life is nothing like Friday the 13th. Jason is not going to spring to life after you've 'killed' him several times.

Huckleberry · Feb 18, 2011

This is something to remember. Mas Ayoob had something about a manslaughter convinction because the defendant kept apologizing and feeling sorry for killing a burglar.

Never make statements to Police or anyone else such as " I'm sorry I had to shoot, I regret this had to happen," you appear remorseful therefor your actions were inappropiate. Such bungling statements could cost you big time later in a court of law, a grand jury hearing, or coroners inquest, and could give the suspect or his family a legal basis for a civil trail for damages, keep your mouth shut.

swinokur · Feb 18, 2011

Maryland_Shooter said:
Yes - Jimmy Gittomer

Barry Helfand. I know some LEo's that keep him on retainer. He's in Rockville

Ab_Normal · Feb 18, 2011

Huckleberry said:
Well looks like we can get back on discussion thanks to some moderation.

parbreak · Feb 18, 2011

Huckleberry said:
This is something to remember. Mas Ayoob had something about a manslaughter convinction because the defendant kept apologizing and feeling sorry for killing a burglar.

"Officer, I was in fear for my life and the lives of my family members. I will be happy to answer your questions as soon as my attorney is here. I respectfully ask that I may contact my attorney now."

h2u · Feb 18, 2011

traveller said:
You dont assist because there is a law that requires you to do so. You assist to show that you had no malice towards the person you had to harm to protect yourself.

If the burglar sues you, he will sue you for shooting him, not for your less than perfect skill at first aid.

I personally wouldn't be rendering aid. I'd be making sure family members were relocating to a safe place (maybe a neighbors home?). My question stems from some information I read/heard years ago. The short version was that if you are a trained medical professional and you're at the scene-you could be taken to civil court and successfully sued for negligence.

I have no idea if it holds any truth, but I was just throwing out another situation because I know we have doctors, nurses, etc as members here.

parbreak · Feb 18, 2011

That's quite a dilema for a doctor who has to defend himself and his family in his own home. On one hand he has taken an oath to do no harm and render aid when possible. On the other hand, he's still a civilian who has just had to protect his family with potentially deadly force.

This is where what I call your "moral compass" kicks in and you have to decide for yourself what you will do in that specific circumstance at that specific time.

Huckleberry · Feb 18, 2011

That's something that some of our MDS medical staff need to join in and discuss.

swinokur · Feb 18, 2011

I think rendering aid completely destoys your situational awareness. What if there are accomplices? Im sorry, my safety and my family's dictates that I not only stay a safe distance away but in a positon to stay in control of the situation. Accomplices or family members could attack you while you're being the good samiritan. I'm not trying to be a hard case, but my safety comes first.

joppaj · Feb 18, 2011

I think a lot of people may see a police response and assume they have to do the same. I am aware of a police officer that shot a deranged gunman, disarmed him, cuffedhim and used CPR to keep him alive until paramedics arrived. If I recall correctly, the family of one of the North Hollywood shooters sued LAPD because they did not attmpt to begin CPR.

I know of no statute that would require a private citizen (or even an off-duty LEO) to attempt CPR.

Dead Eye · Feb 18, 2011

Dead Eye said:
Only use one magazine, do not reload. It shows that you stopped long enough to think about what you were doing. The prosecutor will then eat you up on the witness stand, as to whether or not you could have stopped at any moment.

When the police arrive, have them take the gun out of your hand, as you are standing there with a glazed look on your face, still dry firing the weapon.

For the record, just in case someone thought I was being flip...

This scenario was told to me by a Police Detective in a PA town, near Philly, who got the information from the local DA.

The DA told the detective, that this is the ONLY means by which he cannot tear the shooter apart on the witness stand, or rip their case apart. He further stated:

1. If you reload, during the shooting, the question arises as to if you could have broken off and escaped.

2. If you only fire a shot or two and then stop, the question arises as to whether or not you were in REAL danger to start with, instead of "fearing for your life".

3. If you called the police, and then fired, why didn't you run first, and then call from a neighbor's house.

4. If you say ANYTHING at all, he will shove it up your @$$.

So, the above scenario was not being flip, but actually one that protects your backside. When the police show up....

"Uh, Officer Smith, what did the defendant say when he called 911?"
"He didn't say anything, he didn't call."

"Officer Smith, when you arrived on the scene, how did you find the defendant?"
"He was standing over the dead body, he seemed distance and dispondent."

"What makes you say that, Officer Smith?"
"Well, he was just standing over the dead body like he was in shock, in fact he was still pulling the trigger on the weapon, although it was out of ammunition."

From a police detective and a DA, just in case anyone thought my motives were a bit "jackwagonish".

traveller · Feb 19, 2011

Dead Eye said:
This scenario was told to me by a Police Detective in a PA town, near Philly, who got the information from the local DA.

in other words an urban legend.

So, the above scenario was not being flip, but actually one that protects your backside. When the police show up....

"Uh, Officer Smith, what did the defendant say when he called 911?"
"He didn't say anything, he didn't call."

"Officer Smith, when you arrived on the scene, how did you find the defendant?"
"He was standing over the dead body, he seemed distance and dispondent."

"What makes you say that, Officer Smith?"
"Well, he was just standing over the dead body like he was in shock, in fact he was still pulling the trigger on the weapon, although it was out of ammunition."

I have read up a little bit about the self defense issue, some of it from authors who have spent time researching the legal treatment of self defense in different jurisdiction around the US ----> I have never seen this approach recommended by anyone.

traveller · Feb 19, 2011

squirrels said:
How do you plan on ascertaining that? You don't know if he's conscious or not...he could just be playing possum until you get close. Even if he is unconscious, your efforts could bring him back...his first impulse when he sees you sitting over him within reach is going to be...what??

If someone is unconscious from a gunshot wound, they are with few exceptions out for good. Your efforts in the field are never going to 'bring him back', at best they are going to slow down the downward trajectory of hemorrhagic shock just enough to allow him to make it into the trauma bay at a suitably equipped hospital.

traveller · Feb 19, 2011

parbreak said:
That's quite a dilema for a doctor who has to defend himself and his family in his own home. On one hand he has taken an oath to do no harm and render aid when possible. On the other hand, he's still a civilian who has just had to protect his family with potentially deadly force.

Very little dilemma. The docs obligation to treat only applies to someone who has entered into an agreement with him to be treated. The obligation does not apply to a motorcyclist in a ditch beside the road or someone who broke into the docs home and got injured in the process.

jpk1md · Feb 19, 2011

Markp said:
You bury the body... I thought everyone knew that answer.

S cubed.

S****
S*****
S*** **

:lol2:

jpk1md · Feb 19, 2011

ProShooter said:
Trick question.

There's no such thing as a "good lawyer"

True, but they are an unfortunate necessecity and anyone that doesn't have the name and number of at least one lawyer in your cell phone is a fool.

Your first call should be to 911
Your second call should be to your lawyer.

Dead Eye · Feb 19, 2011

traveller said:
in other words an urban legend.

I have read up a little bit about the self defense issue, some of it from authors who have spent time researching the legal treatment of self defense in different jurisdiction around the US ----> I have never seen this approach recommended by anyone.

How is it an urban legend, because you weren't there? Please? If it weren't from a reputable source, I wouldn't be posting it. I guess you don't view a trained police professional as a reputable source?

You may not see this approach taken anywhere, because this approach was recommended for the Philadelphia area, which is BIG TIME anti-gun. my point is that they have a long standing history of tearing the defendant apart on the witness stand, for things like:

Firing too many rounds, and thus appearing vigilante like.

Stopping in the middle of a clip, thus denoting cognizant thought during the act.

Calling in the 9-1-1 call, and thus using valuable time they could have spent on fleeing the scene.

Talking to police, and saying something that "can and will be used against them".

Personally, and here is where opinion comes into play, I would think that these are all worthy things to consider, as per the OP's original request.

traveller · Feb 19, 2011

Dead Eye said:
How is it an urban legend, because you weren't there? Please? If it weren't from a reputable source, I wouldn't be posting it. I guess you don't view a trained police professional as a reputable source?

- 2nd hand
- attributed to a person of authority
- without an actual quotable source to go along with it

You may not see this approach taken anywhere, because this approach was recommended for the Philadelphia area, which is BIG TIME anti-gun. my point is that they have a long standing history of tearing the defendant apart on the witness stand, for things like:

That is why it is important to take local law and precedent into account.

Phili may be all the 'anti gun' it wants, judges and juries are still bound to relevant state law. Just look at the Gerald Ung case decided last week. While his claim to self defense had some weaknesses and he arguably did a number of the things that according to your source prosecutors would use against him, he stood up testified on his own behalf and justified his actions. Result: acquittal on all charges.

Dead Eye · Feb 19, 2011

traveller said:
- 2nd hand
- attributed to a person of authority
- without an actual quotable source to go along with it

That is why it is important to take local law and precedent into account.

Phili may be all the 'anti gun' it wants, judges and juries are still bound to relevant state law. Just look at the Gerald Ung case decided last week. While his claim to self defense had some weaknesses and he arguably did a number of the things that according to your source prosecutors would use against him, he stood up testified on his own behalf and justified his actions. Result: acquittal on all charges.

First hand, in that I spoke directly to the Detective, a close and personal friend, who acquired the training from the DA during one of their regularly scheduled internal continuing education seminars on law, where the local DA was the guest speaker. No, I'm not giving up his name, just so you can confirm.

Seeing how Marylandistan is closer to the Philly scenario, in mindset, I thought it to be relevant to the area. Gerald Ung benefitted HEAVILY from the Fox 29 video surveillance that clearly shows him and the shooter wrestling over a gun that goes off as a result. Any juror would then conclude that if the now deceased hadn't grabbed for the gun, he still may be alive. Without the video, Mr. Ung could quite possibly be spending the rest of his life in prison.

woodstock · Feb 19, 2011

i am trained in "basic life support" (BLS) and the way i understand it, this is not a good summaritan state, meaning you DON'T have to render assistance to anyone, if you deem the person or the environment to be unsafe. as well, my firearms training "personal protection in the home" and other associated courses absolutely discourage getting close to the threat once it is stopped. in fact, you should be assessing your environment for any additional assailants while calling the police and keeping the 'threat' under surveillance at gunpoint.

What do we do after pulling the trigger?

The #1 community for Gun Owners of the Northeast

Member Benefits:

Ultimate Member

No One of Consequence

In a State of Bliss

Ab_member

Ultimate Member

Village Idiot

Ultimate Member

No One of Consequence

In a State of Bliss

Sheepdog

Banned

The one with two L

The one with two L

The one with two L

Ultimate Member

Ultimate Member

Banned

The one with two L

Banned

Banned

Users who are viewing this thread

Log in

Forum statistics