What is better in low light situations

alucard0822 · Oct 27, 2017

Nnztg8r said:
How about internal motion detector lights??

This doesnt need to be so hard.

I have motion lights pretty much 360 outside, and at entryways inside. In both cases they are awesomely convenient when leaving or arriving after dark, especially when I have to carry in small kids. Both can be good for defensive and deterrent use. The motion switches basically install like a single pole light switch, they get weird when wiring as a 3 way switch, being you use the motion switch as a master, and the other as essentially a remote switch or "sensor" wired directly to the motion switch, most won't let you wire 2 motion switches together on the same circuit. They are programmible, the ones I have(from home depot) adjusts for sensitivity with a screw(for pets), and for ambient light by simply turning the light off within 5 seconds after it activates if you wouldn't normally turn it on. I use this because the motion controls only the entry light, so no need to turn it on if the room lights are already on in that area. I also have motion cameras with programming that will reccord and alert me if someone trips the cameras or lights inside or outside. Looking at it from a burglar's perspective, they start tripping lights and cameras before they get to the now brightly lit house, soon as the door moves the interior light comes on, and I get more alerts. By this time night vision is gone, and my 100# GSD and I can properly greet them from the rest of the dark areas of the house. Have small kids, so I use small LED nightlights, but basically flip them upside down so they shine on the floor, makes it easier to avoid stepping on toys and crap, or to go check on kids without turning on room lights, but also keeps the house relatively dark with just enough light spilling up to identify a target if needed.

fred333 · Oct 27, 2017

Nnztg8r said:
How about internal motion detector lights??

Inigoes said:
Pets set them off

Yes to motion-lights and either confine pets at night or be aware that pets don't generally precede their nighttime grazing with loud crashes and bangs, which're generally indicative of feral "animals" that need to be put-down.

hogarth · Oct 28, 2017

Across the replies to this post, there's some good information. I feel like no one has really put it all together or considered certain factors.

First of all, I think we can all agree that we need to ID potential threats in our homes. And please leave the "if someone's in my house, I'm shootin' him" stuff elsewhere. If a kid climbs in one of your windows because he got addresses mixed up and thinks this is the house where some girl who invited him over lives, are you really going to shoot him? I'd rather not give up my life savings trying to prove to people that I was within my rights doing so.

With that in mind, unless you can ID potential threats by smell, you need light. EVERY long gun that I own that could potentially be called upon in a self-defense role has a light. Long guns require two hands to operate, so a mounted light is the way to go. Something with a switch/tail-cap that can give you "momentary on" is best.

On an AR, I like to mount at 12 o'clock as a first choice (6 o'clock as a second choice). Mounted at 12 or 6 gives me the same profile no matter which side of cover I'm using. 12 o'clock also puts barrel shadow directly down, which I like. I'm also a fan of "more lumens is more better". More light gives you more information, and it's information that you need. If you watch the Aaron Cowan (Sage Dynamics) video someone linked to on page 1, he demonstrates how to illuminate a room without pointing the muzzle directly at people, putting to rest (but not forever, because some people out there seem to refuse to learn) the idea that having a weapon-mounted light means that you muzzle people who don't need to be. He also shows how to NOT blind yourself with high-lumen lights.

Don't go cheap on the lights. Surefire and Streamlight and the best for a reason (actually, several). On a long gun I'd regard 500 lumens as a bare minimum, with 800-1000 being better, depending on the light pattern itself.

As for turning on the lights, yes, that could work. A lot depends on the layout of your house, where lights (and switches) are located, and whether or not you even have electricity. One thought that occurred to me a few years ago after a hurricane (2011...can't remember which one that was) when my power was off for a week, was that this would be an ideal time for bad people to pay a visit. Many alarm systems down and very little light available in entire neighborhoods (and, without power for a week, some people out there might be pretty desperate!). Now imagine a bigger, regional emergency with no power (cause: terror, natural disasters, etc.) perhaps for several weeks, where people are even more desperate. I'm not going to rely on dim night lights or ambient light from the street to give me the information I'm seeking, since that light won't be available, and even in the best of times may not give me real INFORMATION. A weapon-mounted light would be a must in such a scenario. And if we're talking self-defense, I try to prepare, within reason, for worst-case scenarios.

Layout of the house is also important. My house has a pretty open floorplan. A shot from my bedroom door to the entrance to the dining room is about 12 yards. I'm not point-shooting at that distance. Sights are a must and are not on your guns by accident. At in-home distances like that for an AR, a red dot is the way to go (with irons in second place....I'd avoid LPVOs unless you have a really good one like a Vortex Razor 1-6). Someone mentioned something about getting tunnel vision "looking through a tube", but clearly has no idea how an RDS works, as it is a both eyes open device that actually prevents tunnel vision. As with all things AR (and other platforms as well): KNOW YOUR OFFSET! Your sights might be on target, but your muzzle might be behind some near cover for you or end up putting rounds into something you don't want to hit downrange. I've taken enough classes that included buildings and cars to see plenty of people THINK they have a good sight picture but not account for offset. It can get ugly.

Everything else comes down to technique. Constant-on is usually a bad thing. Flashing the light is better. Flash, move....Flash, move. Classes help here.

Finally, don't underestimate noise. Some people seem to think they can creep around silently like a ninja, discounting creaking floorboards, your clothing against a wall, bones creaking, etc.

Just some thoughts.

outrider58 · Oct 28, 2017

hogarth said:
Across the replies to this post, there's some good information. I feel like no one has really put it all together or considered certain factors.

First of all, I think we can all agree that we need to ID potential threats in our homes. And please leave the "if someone's in my house, I'm shootin' him" stuff elsewhere. If a kid climbs in one of your windows because he got addresses mixed up and thinks this is the house where some girl who invited him over lives, are you really going to shoot him? I'd rather not give up my life savings trying to prove to people that I was within my rights doing so.

With that in mind, unless you can ID potential threats by smell, you need light. EVERY long gun that I own that could potentially be called upon in a self-defense role has a light. Long guns require two hands to operate, so a mounted light is the way to go. Something with a switch/tail-cap that can give you "momentary on" is best.

On an AR, I like to mount at 12 o'clock as a first choice (6 o'clock as a second choice). Mounted at 12 or 6 gives me the same profile no matter which side of cover I'm using. 12 o'clock also puts barrel shadow directly down, which I like. I'm also a fan of "more lumens is more better". More light gives you more information, and it's information that you need. If you watch the Aaron Cowan (Sage Dynamics) video someone linked to on page 1, he demonstrates how to illuminate a room without pointing the muzzle directly at people, putting to rest (but not forever, because some people out there seem to refuse to learn) the idea that having a weapon-mounted light means that you muzzle people who don't need to be. He also shows how to NOT blind yourself with high-lumen lights.

Don't go cheap on the lights. Surefire and Streamlight and the best for a reason (actually, several). On a long gun I'd regard 500 lumens as a bare minimum, with 800-1000 being better, depending on the light pattern itself.

As for turning on the lights, yes, that could work. A lot depends on the layout of your house, where lights (and switches) are located, and whether or not you even have electricity. One thought that occurred to me a few years ago after a hurricane (2011...can't remember which one that was) when my power was off for a week, was that this would be an ideal time for bad people to pay a visit. Many alarm systems down and very little light available in entire neighborhoods (and, without power for a week, some people out there might be pretty desperate!). Now imagine a bigger, regional emergency with no power (cause: terror, natural disasters, etc.) perhaps for several weeks, where people are even more desperate. I'm not going to rely on dim night lights or ambient light from the street to give me the information I'm seeking, since that light won't be available, and even in the best of times may not give me real INFORMATION. A weapon-mounted light would be a must in such a scenario. And if we're talking self-defense, I try to prepare, within reason, for worst-case scenarios.

Layout of the house is also important. My house has a pretty open floorplan. A shot from my bedroom door to the entrance to the dining room is about 12 yards. I'm not point-shooting at that distance. Sights are a must and are not on your guns by accident. At in-home distances like that for an AR, a red dot is the way to go (with irons in second place....I'd avoid LPVOs unless you have a really good one like a Vortex Razor 1-6). Someone mentioned something about getting tunnel vision "looking through a tube", but clearly has no idea how an RDS works, as it is a both eyes open device that actually prevents tunnel vision. As with all things AR (and other platforms as well): KNOW YOUR OFFSET! Your sights might be on target, but your muzzle might be behind some near cover for you or end up putting rounds into something you don't want to hit downrange. I've taken enough classes that included buildings and cars to see plenty of people THINK they have a good sight picture but not account for offset. It can get ugly.

Everything else comes down to technique. Constant-on is usually a bad thing. Flashing the light is better. Flash, move....Flash, move. Classes help here.

Finally, don't underestimate noise. Some people seem to think they can creep around silently like a ninja, discounting creaking floorboards, your clothing against a wall, bones creaking, etc.

Just some thoughts.

Agreed

hogarth · Oct 31, 2017

Advice to NOT follow:

http://blog.suarezinternational.com/2017/10/the-truth-about-using-lights-in-a-gunfight.html

Blaster229 · Nov 1, 2017

hogarth said:
Advice to NOT follow:

http://blog.suarezinternational.com/2017/10/the-truth-about-using-lights-in-a-gunfight.html

It's spot on. I agree with every single word.

Cool gun hipsters who train with and carry a wml on their pistols all the time will learn to rely on those lights. How did people "defend" themselves when there weren't wmls available? Just because you have something doesn't mean you always need to use it. People make it like that they won't have a "good shoot" without one. Well my training and experience says bs.

I think all the tactical hotshots need to learn how to make a shot from laying in their bed to the bedroom door (with whatever pistol they have on the nightstand or on the floor) using their off hand (or arm they are not laying on) instead of trying to be solo tactical operator in their molle laden underoos.

The overthinking everything to the nth degree here gets overwhelming sometimes.

DevinRPD · Nov 1, 2017

if you want to use a red dot in the low light (or any light for that matter) also consider how big the sight window is. Eotechs are far more forgiving if you dont have good sight alignment, which, in a real situation, could happen.

hogarth · Nov 1, 2017

Blaster229 said:
It's spot on. I agree with every single word.

Cool gun hipsters who train with and carry a wml on their pistols all the time will learn to rely on those lights. How did people "defend" themselves when there weren't wmls available? Just because you have something doesn't mean you always need to use it. People make it like that they won't have a "good shoot" without one. Well my training and experience says bs.

I think all the tactical hotshots need to learn how to make a shot from laying in their bed to the bedroom door (with whatever pistol they have on the nightstand or on the floor) using their off hand (or arm they are not laying on) instead of trying to be solo tactical operator in their molle laden underoos.

The overthinking everything to the nth degree here gets overwhelming sometimes.

I must respectfully disagree. Sorry, but I see many more cases in the news of people shooting people who do not need to be shot (family members, friends, drunk college kids who went to the wrong house, etc.). Gabe, I think, makes a LOT of assumptions in that article based solely on his current living situation (just him and wife). Throw kids in the mix, and all sorts of crap can happen. How do you KNOW everyone in the family is accounted for unless you either all sleep in one room or you go check. And if you go check, then you may run into someone who could be friend or foe. And as I said in my post above, there are a lot of reasons someone could be in your home who doesn't belong there......But in only a very few such circumstances does that person need to be shot.

Unfortunately, it's tough to mimic the situations you described in training (one arm asleep, bleary-eyed, etc.), other than unconventional positional shooting.

And yes, just because you have something doesn't mean you need to use it. I somehow survived my first 28 or so years without a cell phone. Then I got one and it's been damned nice to have since, right? Heck, you can make the same argument about the gun itself, or autos vs. revolvers, etc.

Blaster229 · Nov 1, 2017

Well. I do have to say that you've taken a lot of classes. That's cool. Have you ever carried a gun as part of your job for many years? You're a school teacher, right?

Schipperke · Nov 1, 2017

Some of the most prominent instructors in the Frederick area advise closing your eyes to shoot faster. That seems to make any necessity of lighting superfluous.

iH8DemLibz · Nov 1, 2017

Blaster229 said:
It's spot on. I agree with every single word.

Cool gun hipsters who train with and carry a wml on their pistols all the time will learn to rely on those lights. How did people "defend" themselves when there weren't wmls available? Just because you have something doesn't mean you always need to use it. People make it like that they won't have a "good shoot" without one. Well my training and experience says bs.

I think all the tactical hotshots need to learn how to make a shot from laying in their bed to the bedroom door (with whatever pistol they have on the nightstand or on the floor) using their off hand (or arm they are not laying on) instead of trying to be solo tactical operator in their molle laden underoos.

The overthinking everything to the nth degree here gets overwhelming sometimes.

Blaster229 · Nov 1, 2017

hogarth said:
I must respectfully disagree. Sorry, but I see many more cases in the news of people shooting people who do not need to be shot (family members, friends, drunk college kids who went to the wrong house, etc.). Gabe, I think, makes a LOT of assumptions in that article based solely on his current living situation (just him and wife). Throw kids in the mix, and all sorts of crap can happen. How do you KNOW everyone in the family is accounted for unless you either all sleep in one room or you go check. And if you go check, then you may run into someone who could be friend or foe. And as I said in my post above, there are a lot of reasons someone could be in your home who doesn't belong there......But in only a very few such circumstances does that person need to be shot.

Unfortunately, it's tough to mimic the situations you described in training (one arm asleep, bleary-eyed, etc.), other than unconventional positional shooting.

And yes, just because you have something doesn't mean you need to use it. I somehow survived my first 28 or so years without a cell phone. Then I got one and it's been damned nice to have since, right? Heck, you can make the same argument about the gun itself, or autos vs. revolvers, etc.

Have you ever been in a shit hole foreign country working on behalf of the United States? So, being downtown Senegal or in Guyana, would you prefer to have had a fcking flashlight or a pistol (without a flashlight) with you? I know what I loved having. Flashlights don't save your life, but a pistol does. I guess if all I have had were classes, I would tout what I learned in them. That's cool. Everyone loves your AARs.
I don't have to mimic situations. I lived them.

hogarth · Nov 1, 2017

Blaster229 said:
Have you ever been in a shit hole foreign country working on behalf of the United States? So, being downtown Senegal or in Guyana, would you prefer to have had a fcking flashlight or a pistol (without a flashlight) with you? I know what I loved having. Flashlights don't save your life, but a pistol does. I guess if all I have had were classes, I would tout what I learned in them. That's cool. Everyone loves your AARs.
I don't have to mimic situations. I lived them.

I don't live in Senegal, Guyana, or Yemen. Nor do you.

Which is more likely where WE live? Tactical ninjas invading our homes, or some doofus family member, neighbor, or drunk idiot gaining access to our homes kinda sorta accidentally?

One has little to do with the other. I'd rather not violate the "rule" of knowing my target and what's around it by pointing and potentially firing my gun in the darkness at every sound I hear or form I vaguely see. If there is truly enough ambient light for you to PID someone as a threat, then that's another story.

Oh, and a flashlight in my hand did once help save a life. No gun has to date.

Blaster229 · Nov 1, 2017

hogarth said:
I don't live in Senegal, Guyana, or Yemen. Nor do you.

Which is more likely where WE live? Tactical ninjas invading our homes, or some doofus family member, neighbor, or drunk idiot gaining access to our homes kinda sorta accidentally?

One has little to do with the other. I'd rather not violate the "rule" of knowing my target and what's around it by pointing and potentially firing my gun in the darkness at every sound I hear or form I vaguely see. If there is truly enough ambient light for you to PID someone as a threat, then that's another story.

Oh, and a flashlight in my hand did once help save a life. No gun has to date.

51 years of life and half of those carrying and living with guns. Again, my experience and training in those years have prepared me for what I need to be prepared for. There has NEVER been an emphasis on having a WML. Like I said earlier to answer the OP, a flashlight is best for lighting a room than a red dot sight.

Who said to shoot at "every sound one hears"? You make it out to be that a flashlight is the primary and the weapon is the secondary. Again. You take a lot of classes. More than any one here could ever afford. You make grand write ups and those less fortunate than you may take your words as gospel. But bottom line is that they are just classes and not real life experience.
To have a light on every defensive weapon you own is way cool and all, bro. But it's not real life for most of us.
We are dolts with a few guns, pretty much zero high speed classes, and want to make it through the night with TAC lights from as seen on tv.

So when I say that someone is better served by practicing shooting a revolver off hand laying down from their bed to the bedroom door, that's real life.
Not flying down to Texas for a high speed class shooting rifles through car windshields.

hogarth · Nov 1, 2017

Blaster229 said:
51 years of life and half of those carrying and living with guns. Again, my experience and training in those years have prepared me for what I need to be prepared for. There has NEVER been an emphasis on having a WML. Like I said earlier to answer the OP, a flashlight is best for lighting a room than a red dot sight.

Who said to shoot at "every sound one hears"? You make it out to be that a flashlight is the primary and the weapon is the secondary. Again. You take a lot of classes. More than any one here could ever afford. You make grand write ups and those less fortunate than you may take your words as gospel. But bottom line is that they are just classes and not real life experience.
To have a light on every defensive weapon you own is way cool and all, bro. But it's not real life for most of us.
We are dolts with a few guns, pretty much zero high speed classes, and want to make it through the night with TAC lights from as seen on tv.

So when I say that someone is better served by practicing shooting a revolver off hand laying down from their bed to the bedroom door, that's real life.
Not flying down to Texas for a high speed class shooting rifles through car windshields.

Wow.

The OP asked about setting up his AR for nighttime HD work, right?

How many bad guys have you shot in your home at night with an AR? Going out on a limb here, but my guess is the same # I have.

You poo-poo training I have received and yet fall back on your own wealth of training, which seems hypocritical. How much training did you receive (while training to protect the friendly skies) in utilizing an AR in a no or low-light HD role? I honestly have no idea. Maybe you got a ton. My guess, though, is that most of your training was focused on your work.

I also closely follow the writings of Claude Werner, who has put together immense writings on what he calls "negative outcomes". These include things like shooting family members (who did not need to be shot.....feel like I should qualify that), shooting oneself by accident, shooting friendly neighbors and friends, etc. And though his moniker is "The Tactical Professor", he comes at this with relevant training and experience (former Green Beret, former head instructor at the Rogers Shooting School). He is a nerd who catalogs this stuff closely. Many of these incidents happen at night when people don't properly PID targets. Again, I ask what is more likely? I suppose all of that depends on our own living situations.

So yes, shooting a revolver from the bed support hand only would definitely be a useful skill.....If and only if you are VERY sure that the person in your bedroom doorway is not the old dude with Alzheimer's from across the street who gained entrance when your son forgot to close the garage when he got home. Though probably legally justified, I'm not so sure it would be morally justified. I'd rather not live with that on my conscience, nor have my accounts raided by my and others' lawyers in a criminal or civil court. Survival is more than just my heart continuing to beat.

That was my point. Gabe says crazy stuff to say crazy stuff, full of bold talk about shooting active killers and then going out for a latte. People who take his verbatim advice are taking greater risks than I ever would.

fred333 · Nov 1, 2017

Blaster229 said:
So when I say that someone is better served by practicing shooting a revolver off hand laying down from their bed to the bedroom door, that's real life.
Not flying down to Texas for a high speed class shooting rifles through car windshields.

When you're right, you're right. :thumbsup:

THier · Nov 2, 2017

arbud said:
just a wife who will be in a closet

When is she "coming out of closet"? :lol2:

erwos · Nov 2, 2017

hogarth said:
Wow.

The OP asked about setting up his AR for nighttime HD work, right?

How many bad guys have you shot in your home at night with an AR? Going out on a limb here, but my guess is the same # I have.

You poo-poo training I have received and yet fall back on your own wealth of training, which seems hypocritical.

Blaster229 is the real deal, far moreso than Gabe Suarez. You'd be well-advised to consider what he's saying in the context of work experiences, not "training".

Biggfoot44 · Nov 2, 2017

I did not sleep in a Holiday Inn , and have had a more sheltered existence than either Blaster's real life, or occasional hyperbole to make a point , if (mumble) longer.

I recall situations where I could see and identify potential threats clearly , but couldn't see my sights at all . Situations where I could see and identify potential threats, and clearly see my tritium sights . A when not be able to see a darn thing "over thata ways " .

Having a gun - good . Being able to see in the dark when appropriate- good . Burning desire to have the one attached to the other - might eventually live & learn , but not so far.

The one time I did first hand observe a need for a powerful WML involved having a wife stand shoulder to shoulder with a 5 cell Maglite trying to gain a bead on the neck of a deer . ( No wasn't myself or Mrs Biggfoot, and not endorsing non-survival jacklighting , just reporting real world feedback.)

Added - To concede with faint praise :
I am outspoken for my preferences for naked guns, without kitchen sinks hanging from them. A white light is less of a bummer than anything else that could be as attached.

Blaster229 · Nov 2, 2017

hogarth said:
Wow.

The OP asked about setting up his AR for nighttime HD work, right?

How many bad guys have you shot in your home at night with an AR? Going out on a limb here, but my guess is the same # I have.

You poo-poo training I have received and yet fall back on your own wealth of training, which seems hypocritical. How much training did you receive (while training to protect the friendly skies) in utilizing an AR in a no or low-light HD role? I honestly have no idea. Maybe you got a ton. My guess, though, is that most of your training was focused on your work.

I also closely follow the writings of Claude Werner, who has put together immense writings on what he calls "negative outcomes". These include things like shooting family members (who did not need to be shot.....feel like I should qualify that), shooting oneself by accident, shooting friendly neighbors and friends, etc. And though his moniker is "The Tactical Professor", he comes at this with relevant training and experience (former Green Beret, former head instructor at the Rogers Shooting School). He is a nerd who catalogs this stuff closely. Many of these incidents happen at night when people don't properly PID targets. Again, I ask what is more likely? I suppose all of that depends on our own living situations.

So yes, shooting a revolver from the bed support hand only would definitely be a useful skill.....If and only if you are VERY sure that the person in your bedroom doorway is not the old dude with Alzheimer's from across the street who gained entrance when your son forgot to close the garage when he got home. Though probably legally justified, I'm not so sure it would be morally justified. I'd rather not live with that on my conscience, nor have my accounts raided by my and others' lawyers in a criminal or civil court. Survival is more than just my heart continuing to beat.

That was my point. Gabe says crazy stuff to say crazy stuff, full of bold talk about shooting active killers and then going out for a latte. People who take his verbatim advice are taking greater risks than I ever would.

If Pannone wrote it, you'd be all the praise.

It makes zero difference who writes a valid point or two. Crazy or sane.
I am a no light guy. I do have a light available because that's the best way to light up a dark room when I need to see. I have nothing against people who use them. However, those who use them SWEAR by them(will argue to the death) and don't see no light/low light as a tactical option/advantage for their "tool box".
I poo poo on people who aren't in the business, never have been, and bash an experienced guy with valid points. I don't think your few classes trump his experience. I also poo poo on people who will clear their house with an AR, a wml, and all alone. But that's another discussion.
I'll just say this. A bad guy in your house who is intent on harming you, will do just that without worrying about consequence. He sees your light, he points and shoots. You shining your light to make an even more "PID", requires you to take more time to think, identify, acquire, and then make a shot. His reaction is faster than your action. Meanwhile, the shoot most likely will be within arms reach. All of this doesn't even need to happen if you would not have left your position of dominance in the first place.
Hell, we have a guy in another thread saying that you can shoot faster with your eyes closed. And another validating that idea. Now that's crazy talk.

I will answer the OP for a 3rd time by saying that a light is better for night shooting than an illuminated red dot. Since a light is meant to provide light (to see) and a sight is not designed for that. Two different things.

I understand all your points. Like I always say, it's your shoot. Shoot it the way you wanna shoot it.

What is better in low light situations

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