Referendum

erwos · Apr 5, 2013

teratos said:
We can disagree on particular topics. I don't think anyone will be ostracized from the 2A community due to their views on this. We all still have a common goal. If we all agreed on everything, we would be a bunch of dummies.

Geez, teratos, never mind all that fine work you've done for us in testifying and serving on the mental health group. If you oppose a referendum on entirely reasonable grounds, that makes you an ANTI, because opposing any pro-gun efforts (no matter how nutty) automatically makes you an ANTI. We need to have a united front while we do something very, very stupid, futile, and wasteful! GUN OWNERS UBER ALLES!!! HUZZAH!!!

Schipperke · Apr 5, 2013

Just in case everyone's memory is faint,

teratos · Apr 5, 2013

erwos said:
Geez, teratos, never mind all that fine work you've done for us in testifying and serving on the mental health group. If you oppose a referendum on entirely reasonable grounds, that makes you an ANTI, because opposing any pro-gun efforts (no matter how nutty) automatically makes you an ANTI. We need to have a united front while we do something very, very stupid, futile, and wasteful! GUN OWNERS UBER ALLES!!! HUZZAH!!!

Some people are a little quick to call names and put labels on others who don't agree with them. I really don't have the time or energy to take that personally. I have no doubt that a referendum is coming. I wish it wouldn't, but it is clear that there isn't much going to stop it.

It is funny that on some subjects people will say "I'm going to wait for guidance from MSI", and on others people say, MSI becomes a group supporting the Governor's bill not not being in line with what they think. Nevermind that a lot of us have worked at this nearly as much (and in the case of Patrick and John Josselyn more than) our full-time jobs over the past few months.

teratos · Apr 5, 2013

Jack Ryan said:
I am all for a referendum on 281

-A Referenmdum will push back implementation of 281 till after the 2014 election, giving the courts more time to turn it over before implementation.

-2014 is a non-Presidential election, Dem turnout will be light giving us a better shot to overturn 281 and push out of office the clowns who voted for it!

-If MSI doesnt like it, they should shut up, get out of our way, and stick to their right to carry effort...let us pursue the Referendum, and stop peeing on our parade.

Since this bill has NOTHING to do with the "right to carry", should MSI have just stayed home on SB281? Are you f'ing kidding me? :sad20:

MDFF2008 · Apr 5, 2013

Jack Ryan said:
I am all for a referendum on 281

-A Referenmdum will push back implementation of 281 till after the 2014 election, giving the courts more time to turn it over before implementation.

-2014 is a non-Presidential election, Dem turnout will be light giving us a better shot to overturn 281 and push out of office the clowns who voted for it!

-If MSI doesnt like it, they should shut up, get out of our way, and stick to their right to carry effort...let us pursue the Referendum, and stop peeing on our parade.

Wow. So all that shit we did to try to help with SB281, we shouldn't have? We should have just let them pass it?

You need to recheck that comment. MSI busted ass on SB281, and if it weren't for us, you'd prob be registering everything you own right now.

In case you missed it, MSI is about all gun owners. We aren't just right to carry.

What happens when you loose and MSI has to clean up your mess?

What happens when Bloomberg dumps millions to get voter turnout? Can you overcome that?

What happens when the ballot question reads

"Should Maryland overturn a ban on high capacity assault rifles?"

Oh yeah, you do know Maryland writes the ballot question right?

occbrian · Apr 5, 2013

I think erwos was being sarcastic.

Jack Ryan is off base.

Jack Ryan · Apr 5, 2013

You are putting words in my mouth hair man.

Hopalong · Apr 5, 2013

Okay folks, it boils down to this:

A referendum is a gamble. The courts are a gamble. Both have good and bad possible outcomes.

Both of them also present the possibility of delaying the implementation of the law. Injunctions are usually much more likely to be handed out against a new law taking affect than they are against existing laws (as in Wollard).

From where I sit, a bad court outcome doesn't make things any worse for us than they already are, aside from costing money. But a bad referendum outcome could potentially make things far worse for us.

I'm not saying that we shouldn't go the referendum route. I'm saying that if we go that route, we need to be very much aware of the possible impact it could have and be ready to deal with the consequences.

MDFF2008 · Apr 5, 2013

Hopalong said:
Okay folks, it boils down to this:

A referendum is a gamble. The courts are a gamble. Both have good and bad possible outcomes.

Both of them also present the possibility of delaying the implementation of the law. Injunctions are usually much more likely to be handed out against a new law taking affect than they are against existing laws (as in Wollard).

From where I sit, a bad court outcome doesn't make things any worse for us than they already are, aside from costing money. But a bad referendum outcome could potentially make things far worse for us.

I'm not saying that we shouldn't go the referendum route. I'm saying that if we go that route, we need to be very much aware of the possible impact it could have and be ready to deal with the consequences.

If you loose at the ballot box, can you imagine the stuff that will be proposed in 2015?

rh92 · Apr 5, 2013

I want a referendum to happen, but I won't hold my breath. Hoping for the best, expecting the worst.

Jack Ryan · Apr 5, 2013

I wish you guys would go back to the MSI section, and leave this alone. Looks like you are the "know it all", intolerant demagogues now.

Hopalong · Apr 5, 2013

And seriously guys, please remember that we're all on the same side. We may disagree with the tactics we want to pursue, but that doesn't mean that our end goals aren't all the same. Calling anybody who has been pouring their time and energy into fighting this an "anti", or telling MSI to "get out of their way" does nothing but weaken our cause.

We must all hang together, or we will certainly hang separately.

wynnstudio · Apr 5, 2013

I think it’s worth it to do the referendum. I think we have a decent chance at winning.

My rational is. First of all people are creatures of habit, most will only get off their butt if it effects them directly.

Reason the gay marriage vote passed, there were more people that would be directly effected if it lost. Either they were gay or knew a gay couple.

People voting against it did not have a direct effect on there daily lives.

In the case of SB281, I think more people will vote to overturn it because of the direct effect on their lives.

People who are for SB281, for many of them it is just an abstract argument, “guns bad”.

Put that together with an off year election and I think we can win.

Will I get off my butt and vote against something that has a direct effect on my life – YES

Will I get off my butt and vote for something that has a no direct effect on my life – Maybe

I know many people that are liberal and voted for Gay Marriage that will against SB281.

I also know many frustrated conservatives that have stopped voting because of the Democrat lock on the legislator that would come out and vote again.

Hopalong · Apr 5, 2013

gprimr1 said:
If you loose at the ballot box, can you imagine the stuff that will be proposed in 2015?

I won't even type it here.

One thing that I think we can all agree on is that the Democratic Primaries in 2014 will be more important than either a referendum or a court case.

HKB · Apr 5, 2013

teratos said:
We can disagree on particular topics. I don't think anyone will be ostracized from the 2A community due to their views on this. We all still have a common goal. If we all agreed on everything, we would be a bunch of liberal progressives.

Fixed

erwos · Apr 5, 2013

occbrian said:
I think erwos was being sarcastic.

Duh. (I recently got smacked for that at work, now that you mention it.)

gprimr1 said:
If you loose at the ballot box, can you imagine the stuff that will be proposed in 2015?

And here's the cost that so many of you are ignoring. If we lose by more than a slight margin, a bunch of politicians are going to see that as go-time to "improve" our gun laws. No thanks.

MDFF2008 · Apr 5, 2013

Jack Ryan said:
I wish you guys would go back to the MSI section, and leave this alone. Looks like you are the know it all, intolerant demogogues now.

I don't know why you are so quick to want to attack the people who fight for you. I don't know why you are so quick to attack the people who spend countless hours defending your rights.

There are very real reasons why referendum's are not the best idea here.

It would take every single republican voter in Maryland, plus 4%+1 of democrats to over turn. Every single republican isn't pro-gun. So forget that. So then you need even more Dems, and then you have the issues with people who support 2A but don't' support semi-auto rifles. And I bet they will write it in such a way that you have to go all or nothing.

We would be fighting millions in Bloomberg money.

We would be fighting a ballot question written by the state designed to make us loose.

We would have to split resources between removing elected officials and the referendum.

If we loose, it get's even worse. Really worse. If we loose and fail to remove anyone from office, it get's SHTF.

Can you imagine for 1 second if Brian Frosh calls our bluff? He and the rest said "**** you, we don't care about you and there's nothing you can do about it."

Imagine if that comes true. Do you want to be on the receiving end of a Frosh who knows that gun owners can't unseat a single elected official? A Brian Frosh who knows that Frederick can't even unseat Ron Young?

It's gonna take time and money to remove these guys. Its gonna take guys attending events, going door to door, standing at stop signs, it's going to take money. Neither of these are unlimited resources. Money is an unlimited resource for Michael Bloomberg. A referendum is a statewide event, removing a few Senators is not. We can target the resources we have.

MDlocal · Apr 5, 2013

Twenty4 said:
There are allot more pro 2A dems among the individual citizens then you would think. I would bet we could win this in a vote.

You're right. I've been very surprised by people who have approached me that last day or so saying how they think this bill is crazy. And that includes conservative people who I thought wouldn't care. Apparently, this is scaring a lot of people I didn't think it would affect. I guess there's something about having rights taken away that people don't like.

Schipperke · Apr 5, 2013

wynnstudio said:
I think it’s worth it to do the referendum. I think we have a decent chance at winning.

My rational is. First of all people are creatures of habit, most will only get off their butt if it effects them directly.

There is merit there. Look at how many to support the bill showed up in Annapolis vs what remains of normal people in this state.

teratos · Apr 5, 2013

Jack Ryan said:
You are putting words in my mouth hair man.

Jack Ryan said:
I wish you guys would go back to the MSI section, and leave this alone. Looks like you are the "know it all", intolerant demagogues now.

No, I don't think I am putting any words in your mouth. :sad20:

Let me see if I get this straight. If we agree with you, we are pro-2A Patriots. If we disagree with you, even when we back it up with reasons, we are "intolerant demagogues"? There are going to be things that we are going to disagree on. There are going to be times when we argue. Shouldn't there be? When you start the name calling it ends intelligent debate. You are way off base.

Referendum

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