Glock point shooting?

randyho · Nov 11, 2013

niftyvt said:
Practice more.

*DING*
A while back I took Suarez Int'l's point shooting gunfighting skills class. It wasn't until the second half of day 2 that things started to come together. By then, indexing was a snap and several of us were flat out amazed at the sort of accuracy we were capable of w/o sights (which had been taped over since early day 1). I really need to follow up with their second course in that series. Very eye opening.

RobMoore · Nov 11, 2013

With a high thumbs forward grip, your support thumb should give you a good idea of where the slide is pointed without using the sights.

If you have an older style grip, or the lazy thumbs forward, you might need a lot more dedicated practice to get point shooting to work for you.

Dogabutila · Nov 11, 2013

Honestly I feel like it has a lot more to do with spatial awareness than grip angles.

RobMoore · Nov 11, 2013

If you've spent the last 4 years shooting nothing but SIGs, then switch to a Glock and try to point shoot, you will hit high. That is grip angle related, and at least some practice will be required to overcome it.

mrozowjj · Nov 11, 2013

Point shooting is really something that should only be used in close distances and within those distances the grip angle on any gun doesn't really throw me that much, a inch or two high or an inch or two low inside of 5 yards is still well within minute-o-badguy.

RobMoore · Nov 11, 2013

I agree. I only ever point shoot 3 yards or less, and even then I can still reference the sights.

Mossyoak · Nov 11, 2013

I agree that practicing more may be the answer. Glock is my carry gun so its the one I practice point shooting. I am amazed at how well I point shoot now.

SCARCQB · Nov 11, 2013

Old school Army guys(ww2) take point shooting up to 50 yards.

Besides, the old issue 1911s had crappy sights anyways.

Dogabutila · Nov 12, 2013

RobMoore said:
If you've spent the last 4 years shooting nothing but SIGs, then switch to a Glock and try to point shoot, you will hit high. That is grip angle related, and at least some practice will be required to overcome it.

How bout doing it the other way around? I've spent the last 4 years shooting nothing but Glock, picked up a friend's 1911 and point shot it just fine.

You just get your grip, point your finger along the slide until you are pointing at the target and then pull the trigger. The only thing that matters really is where your finger is. Has nothing to do with the grip angle. It will change WHERE your pointing finger is in relation to your fist/grip. Nothing more.

RobMoore · Nov 12, 2013

No, because you were thinking about it, using your conscious mind. I'm talking about someone used to one and then picking the other up and being forced to immediately shoot someone with it (or any target scenario under the pressure of having to shoot subconsciously). Your hands are going to extend out the same way they've done for years, and your aim WILL be different.

You may have been "fine" on your cosy range day with your friends gun, but that isn't the point shooting I was talking about. How many classes of pistol instruction have you taught?

Blaster229 · Nov 12, 2013

Dogabutila said:
You just get your grip, point your finger along the slide until you are pointing at the target and then pull the trigger. The only thing that matters really is where your finger is. Has nothing to do with the grip angle. It will change WHERE your pointing finger is in relation to your fist/grip. Nothing more.

Hate to break it to ya, but where your pointer finger is has nothing to do with point shooting. That finger better be going into or already on the trigger as you are presenting the pistol at the target and going off as you are pushing out or immediately as you are fully extended. Because there is already a determination of lethal force.
You may even have a Shitty hand grip. In most cases you will.
The "point" in point shooting is an emergency reaction with instinctively being on target engaging a threat. Point shooting is not slow fire. Teaching slow fire point shooting, finger games, taping sights, etc... is only instructional to convey understanding and build up skills.

Dogabutila · Nov 12, 2013

Blaster229 said:
Hate to break it to ya, but where your pointer finger is has nothing to do with point shooting. That finger better be going into or already on the trigger as you are presenting the pistol at the target and going off as you are pushing out or immediately as you are fully extended. Because there is already a determination of lethal force.
You may even have a Shitty hand grip. In most cases you will.
The "point" in point shooting is an emergency reaction with instinctively being on target engaging a threat. Point shooting is not slow fire. Teaching slow fire point shooting, finger games, taping sights, etc... is only instructional to convey understanding and build up skills.

As I understand it, draw high. Orient towards the threat. Punch out. I can point while orienting and finger goes into the trigger guard and presses as I'm punching out. Is this incorrect?

RobMoore · Nov 12, 2013

If you want to be slow about it you can make it a three step process, yeah. They teach that to beginners to simplify things.

Blaster229 · Nov 12, 2013

Dogabutila said:
As I understand it, draw high. Orient towards the threat. Punch out. I can point while orienting and finger goes into the trigger guard and presses as I'm punching out. Is this incorrect?

Like Rob said, this can be done. This is to instill the skill, sure.
However in full speed, most do not adhere to the "proper draw" so to speak.
Most will not draw straight up and then press out from the high ready, (picture a 90 degree angle). Then break the shot.
I know with me and probably others, the draw is traveling from the holster straight out to the target. Picture drawing a line from the holster to full press. A 30ish degree angle I guess.
The quickest way from point A to point B is a straight line, right? No need to come up with the draw, meet your support hand, grip, press out then break the shot.

Me personally, I am firing from the bent elbow all the way out and unzipping the threat from waist to chest.

niftyvt · Nov 12, 2013

Blaster229 said:
Like Rob said, this can be done. This is to instill the skill, sure.
However in full speed, most do not adhere to the "proper draw" so to speak.
Most will not draw straight up and then press out from the high ready, (picture a 90 degree angle). Then break the shot.
I know with me and probably others, the draw is traveling from the holster straight out to the target. Picture drawing a line from the holster to full press. A 30ish degree angle I guess.
The quickest way from point A to point B is a straight line, right? No need to come up with the draw, meet your support hand, grip, press out then break the shot.

Me personally, I am firing from the bent elbow all the way out and unzipping the threat from waist to chest.

Kind of like this?

I really want to take a class with Ron! Following what he explained in the video, and ditching the '3 point' draw stroke completely, got me to my sub 1 sec draw from concealment. I can only imagine the time I could shave off that with him instructing in person!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BMSlCyc-SQQ

Just click/copy paste the link, I cant do the fancy youtube stuff at work.

RobMoore · Nov 12, 2013

I'm a fan of Ron on the range. Keep him on topic, and he is the best one on one instructor I've had. He is awesome at diagnosis.

It is a shame our newer instructors don't get the benefit of a trip out to CO.

Dogabutila · Nov 13, 2013

I meant draw high as in on the grip. Pinky isn't important, as is the spacing. So, high as possible on the grip under the beavertail. Not, draw into the armpit, but more like the 7 count NRA or whatever that you can shoot straight out of the holster 1 handed.

Racinready300ex · Nov 15, 2013

I feel like I must be the odd duck using my sights.

I figure if I have a good index, for the round to hit the target the sights will be alinged. If my eye's are open why not see them?

Blaster229 · Nov 15, 2013

Racinready300ex said:
I feel like I must be the odd duck using my sights.

I figure if I have a good index, for the round to hit the target the sights will be alinged. If my eye's are open why not see them?

The idea of point shooting is no sights.
We are talking critical, high speed defensive shots. Lethal hits don't necessarily need the sights to be aligned. We are not concerned with shooting a nice group, but landing at least one critical and effective first shot.
Distance is a factor. Sights being off isn't a factor 1-10 yards or so. But at 25, sights not aligned is an issue. But again we probably should be point shooting at 25 for self defense shots.

Racinready300ex · Nov 15, 2013

Blaster229 said:
The idea of point shooting is no sights.
We are talking critical, high speed defensive shots. Lethal hits don't necessarily need the sights to be aligned. We are not concerned with shooting a nice group, but landing at least one critical and effective first shot.
Distance is a factor. Sights being off isn't a factor 1-10 yards or so. But at 25, sights not aligned is an issue. But again we probably should be point shooting at 25 for self defense shots.

I'm not talking about group shooting either. But my practice is for compitition, and not really defense. Although I imagine the skill will transfer over a bit.

I look at like if I see my sights, I can call a miss then make that shot up. If I don't see my sights I can't do that. Is it really that much slower to see something that's already there? Just watching what's happening in front of you shouldn't take any longer to do.

In my training, I try to see my sights for every shot. Even more so in dryfire. I don't see any benifit to not seeing them. Now on game day I will break some shots with out seeing my sights, although that's really not the plan.

Glock point shooting?

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