Form 1 SBR "disapproved" because AW are Illegal in MD??

Noroar1 · Jan 29, 2015

Received Form 1 approved email just now.
AR SBR 29.5 OAL

Submitted 12/1, almost 3 months. Signed by Ted.

d_c · Jan 29, 2015

Woot, I got my third in too just now. The floodgates are opened! :party29:

DC-W · Jan 29, 2015

Keep the gravy train rolling!

Drew1340 · Jan 29, 2015

approved tonight as well

Klunatic · Jan 29, 2015

I have a question now that the ATF is approving >29" OAL length SBRs. If I have a Pre 10/1/13 lower. If I SBR the lower with 29" OAL and get the approval from the NFA. According to a recent discussion with Andrew at NFA section I can temporarily put any length upper on the lower (shorter or longer) and still be compliant with the Federal law as long as I keep the parts for the original length. If I change the length permanently I would need to just send a letter notifying them of the change. As the lower is pre 10/1/13 would it not be grandfathered and be legal under MD state law?

bobthefisher · Jan 29, 2015

Klunatic said:
I have a question now that the ATF is approving >29" OAL length SBRs. I have a Pre 10/1/13 virgin lower. If I SBR the lower with 29" OAL and get the approval from the NFA. According to a recent discussion with Andrew at NFA section I can temporarily put any length upper on the lower (shorter or longer) and still be compliant with the Federal law as long as I keep the parts for the original length. If I change the length permanently I would need to just send a letter notifying them of the change. As the lower is pre 10/1/13 would it not be grandfathered and be legal under MD state law?

No. He's correct on federal law, however since it's not a complete firearm, and thus not considered a grandfathered "assault long gun" or "copycat weapon", then finishing it with those characteristics after Oct. 1st 2013 would be illegal under MD law (not federal), as it's currently viewed by MSP Licensing Division.

Klunatic · Jan 29, 2015

bobthefisher said:
No. He's correct on federal law, however since it's not a complete firearm, and thus not considered a grandfathered "assault long gun" or "copycat weapon", then finishing it with those characteristics after Oct. 1st 2013 would be illegal under MD law (not federal), as it's currently viewed by MSP Licensing Division.

I don't follow your logic. I can take my pre 10/13 lower and finish it with post 10/13 banned features and still be legal. MD consider the lower the firearm regardless of its finished state. Why would this be different if its an SBR?

bobthefisher · Jan 29, 2015

Klunatic said:
I don't follow your logic. I can take my pre 10/13 lower and finish it with post 10/13 banned features and still be legal. MD consider the lower the firearm regardless of its finished state. Why would this be different if its an SBR?

Actually, there isn't much in MD law concerning receivers/frames, but yes they are considered a firearm, however as an "other" under federal law, not a rifle, shotgun, handgun, etc.

It would need to have been configured (i.e. built) as an "assault long gun" or "copycat weapon" before Oct. 1st 2013 to be considered grandfathered.

Klunatic · Jan 29, 2015

bobthefisher said:
Actually, there isn't much in MD law concerning receivers/frames, but yes they are considered a firearm, however as an "other" under federal law, not a rifle, shotgun, handgun, etc.

It would need to have been configured (i.e. built) as an "assault long gun" or "copycat weapon" before Oct. 1st 2013 to be considered grandfathered.

Does it say that in the law the firearm has to be built prior to 10/13? I don't recall seeing that in the statue? Can you cite the section?

bobthefisher · Jan 29, 2015

Article - Criminal Law

§4–303(b)(3) A person who lawfully possessed, has a purchase order for, or completed an application to purchase an assault long gun or a copycat weapon before October 1, 2013, may:

(i) possess and transport the assault long gun or copycat weapon; or

You did NOT possess an "assault long gun or a copycat weapon" before Oct. 1st. It was just a receiver, which you can still purchase to this day. Sorry man.

Klunatic · Jan 29, 2015

bobthefisher said:
Article - Criminal Law

§4–303(b)(3) A person who lawfully possessed, has a purchase order for, or completed an application to purchase an assault long gun or a copycat weapon before October 1, 2013, may:

(i) possess and transport the assault long gun or copycat weapon; or

You did NOT possess an "assault long gun or copycat weapon" before Oct. 1st. It was just a receiver, which you can still purchase to this day. Sorry man.

I still don't see how the law distinguishes a lower from "assault long gun" or copycat and a receiver. If I can build this pre 10/13 lower as a copycat and/or assault long gun and be legal why then does it change for a SBR?

SneakySh0rty · Jan 29, 2015

Got a first "disapproved" tonight for my 3rd SBR

was for an AK SBR 14.5" barrel so definitely over 29" OAL. meh

Just read the comment at the very end of my PDF. Thought it was going to be the lame excuse of being an copycat etc.

Instead I got this:

DESCRIPTION OF FIREARM INCOMPLETE, NAME AND LOCATION OF ORIGINAL MANUFACTURER OF FIREARM (RECEIVER), IF
PROTOTYPE, FURNISH PLANS AND SPECIFICATIONS ON SEPARATE SHEET ATTACHMENT, REFUND IN PROCESS...TEC

So even though i wrote "FORM 1 Registration" like I have done for my last 2 home built AR SBRs, seems this time it's not good enough.

bobthefisher · Jan 29, 2015

Klunatic said:
I still don't see how the law distinguishes a lower from "assault long gun" or copycat and a receiver. If I can build this pre 10/13 lower as a copycat and/or assault long gun and be legal why then does it change for a SBR?

I don't mean to be rude, but I don't know how else to put it. Your receiver had yet to be a specifically listed/defined "assault long gun" or "copycat weapon" and is therefore not grandfathered.

Follow along, I personally finished all of my pre Oct. 1st registered AR-15 receivers TEMPORARILY into a "assault long gun" or "copycat weapon" configuration before Oct. 1st. Therefore, since they were at one point an ALG or CCW, then they are now permanently grandfathered as such.

I know this is stupid, but remember this is a public forum.

ride4frnt · Jan 29, 2015

Mine was disapproved yesterday for the wrong name in 3b. Do you guys know how long it should be for a turnaround if I resubmit and reference my disapproval?

How should I go about referencing my disapproval?

Klunatic · Jan 29, 2015

bobthefisher said:
I don't mean to be rude, but I don't know how else to put it. Your receiver had yet to be a specifically listed/defined "assault long gun" or "copycat weapon" and is therefore not grandfathered.

Follow along, I personally finished all of my pre Oct. 1st registered AR-15 receivers TEMPORARILY into a "assault long gun" or "copycat weapon" before Oct. 1st. Therefore, since they were at one point an ALG or CCW, then they are not permanently grandfathered as such.

Not trying to obstinate or rude either. How does MD know you finished your pre 10/13 lowers in to CCW or ALG prior to 10/13? Did you register them as ALG or CCW prior to 10/13? Are you saying that because you finished your lowers prior to 10/13 they are Grandfather and you can SBR them with OAL <29"?

bobthefisher · Jan 29, 2015

SneakySh0rty said:
Got a first "disapproved" tonight for my 3rd SBR

was for an AK SBR 14.5" barrel so definitely over 29" OAL. meh

Just read the comment at the very end of my PDF. Thought it was going to be the lame excuse of being an copycat etc.

Instead I got this:

So even though i wrote "FORM 1 Registration" like I have done for my last 2 home built AR SBRs, seems this time it's not good enough.

This happened to me on a paper submission a couple years ago. However, I was lucky enough that the examiner called me and requested "plans" for the home made firearm. I sent her all sided pictures of the unfinished AK receiver. It was approved shortly after that submission. Keep trying.

bobthefisher · Jan 29, 2015

Klunatic said:
Not trying to obstinate or rude either. How does MD know you finished your pre 10/13 lowers in to CCW or ALG prior to 10/13? Did you register them as ALG or CCW prior to 10/13? Are you saying that because you finished your lowers prior to 10/13 they are Grandfather and you can SBR them with OAL <29"?

They don't, no re-registration, but no < 29 inches in OAL.

Currently SBR's still must follow the "copycat weapon" restrictions, but under MD law they're considered handguns not ALG's in one subsection, but defined under common language as rifles in the "copycat weapon" definition subsection.

SneakySh0rty · Jan 30, 2015

bobthefisher said:
This happened to me on a paper submission a couple years ago. However, I was lucky enough that the examiner called me and requested "plans" for the home made firearm. I sent her all sided pictures of the unfinished AK receiver. It was approved shortly after that submission. Keep trying.

I dont think I will be as lucky. I remember when they first were accidentally denying eforms, they would say "Oops, our fault, but you still have to resubmit." I think there was a few rare cases were a few MDS members were lucky and an examiner would fix minor mistakes/sends schematics right away. I guess I'll try giving him a call and see what I can do.

If I have to resubmit, then I am just going to use the funds towards a different project.

Klunatic · Jan 30, 2015

bobthefisher said:
They don't, and somewhat.

Currently SBR's still must follow the "copycat weapon" restrictions, but under MD law they're considered handguns not ALG's in one subsection, but defined under common language as rifles in the "copycat weapon" definition subsection.

Which takes me back to my original question. If you have a pre 10/13 CCW or ALG and SBR it now at 29". Can you not still comply with both Federal and MD law if you temporarily put a shorter upper on the lower making it less than 29 OAL?

bobthefisher · Jan 30, 2015

Klunatic said:
Which takes me back to my original question. If you have a pre 10/13 CCW or ALG and SBR it now at 29". Can you not still comply with both Federal and MD law if you temporarily put a shorter upper on the lower making it less than 29 OAL?

If it was made into a CCW or ALG before Oct. 1st then that's fine.

Form 1 SBR "disapproved" because AW are Illegal in MD??

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