More NFA Trust Questions

Noobtube · Mar 24, 2016

Sorry in advance, as I'm sure this has been asked before but there is SOOOO much info that contradicts itself out there. I'm looking for a little clarification here

I purchased an M92 because I always wanted an AK and didn't realize it was illegal in MD until it was too late. Finally found that the best route was to purchase an AK pistol and make an SBR out of it. At this point I'm leaning towards a trust as I'm aware of some changes heading that way in June/July. Few questions:
1. I don't want to start an argument here but I'm leaning towards purchasing a Gun Trust through SilencerShop.com. I can't justify $500+ for a trust and then the stamp. If anyone has any info on someone local, I'm all ears. Seen Rusty's name thrown around a lot and I'll reach out to him.
2. Once i get the trust, what's next? - I assume at some point I'll have to fill out Form 1 and submit it, once approved then i apply for the stamp or does Form 1 approval get you the stamp?
3. Would the receiver need to be engraved since it was originally made by Century Arms?

Thanks in advance guys, i purchased the parts and I'm itching to assemble and go!

protegeV · Mar 24, 2016

http://www.mdshooters.com/forumdisplay.php?f=234

MacGuns · Mar 24, 2016

There are 4 local industry partners on the site that can do a trust for you. Some require a personal visit, some work entirely via email if distance is an issue.

http://www.mdshooters.com/forumdisplay.php?f=189

There are several reasons for having a trust, but the current primary reason is to by pass the need for local CLEO signoff, finger prints, etc. The trust also enables you to use the E-File system for Form 1 items.

If you are doing multiple NFA items a trust makes sense. However, the rules will change in July of this year to require prints for all trustees for future NFA items. The CLEO signoff will go away. If all you will ever do is the single NFA item, some people have recommended skipping the the trust method and paper file after July. However, once you get your first NFA item, the need for more will grow. You can discuss the pros and cons of the trust post July with one of the IP lawyers above.

The submittal of the form 1 with the $200 tax payment is done when you submit the form 1. When it is approved you have the stamp and can build.

There are several discussion about the need for engraving in other threads.
http://www.mdshooters.com/showthread.php?t=190729

outrider58 · Mar 24, 2016

Form 1 approval IS the stamp. If you file electronically, your stamp will come with your approval in PDF format only. No paper version.
If you do a paper Form 1, you will receive a paper approval with the real stamp attached.
Much discussion over whether or not to engrave. Cover your bases and engrave.

Noobtube · Mar 24, 2016

protegeV said:
http://www.mdshooters.com/forumdisplay.php?f=234

Thanks I'll check them out. Any experience with them?

MacMoov said:
There are 4 local industry partners on the site that can do a trust for you. Some require a personal visit, some work entirely via email if distance is an issue.

http://www.mdshooters.com/forumdisplay.php?f=189

There are several reasons for having a trust, but the current primary reason is to by pass the need for local CLEO signoff, finger prints, etc. The trust also enables you to use the E-File system for Form 1 items.

If you are doing multiple NFA items a trust makes sense. However, the rules will change in July of this year to require prints for all trustees for future NFA items. The CLEO signoff will go away. If all you will ever do is the single NFA item, some people have recommended skipping the the trust method and paper file after July. However, once you get your first NFA item, the need for more will grow. You can discuss the pros and cons of the trust post July with one of the IP lawyers above.

The submittal of the form 1 with the $200 tax payment is done when you submit the form 1. When it is approved you have the stamp and can build.

There are several discussion about the need for engraving in other threads.
http://www.mdshooters.com/showthread.php?t=190729

Thank for the info. I'll check these guys out too. Any experience with any of them?

outrider58 said:
Form 1 approval IS the stamp. If you file electronically, your stamp will come with your approval in PDF format only. No paper version.
If you do a paper Form 1, you will receive a paper approval with the real stamp attached.
Much discussion over whether or not to engrave. Cover your bases and engrave.

Do you end up with some massive name engraved across your whole receiver or ?

outrider58 · Mar 24, 2016

Noobtube said:
Thanks

Do you end up with some massive name engraved across your whole receiver or ?

No my name is 3 letters + the word "TRUST" followed by city and state. You can have the engraving done as small as you want, no regs on that. Only regs is on the depth of the engraving.

protegeV · Mar 24, 2016

Noobtube said:
Thanks I'll check them out. Any experience with them?

yes, I got a trust from them. It's solid. Great communication as well. :thumbsup:

Noobtube · Mar 24, 2016

Thanks a lot for the help guys, seems like Potomac might be getting a call soon....

Hawkeye · Mar 24, 2016

Noobtube said:
Do you end up with some massive name engraved across your whole receiver or ?

That depends.
If you do it as an individual, you have to engrave your name, and the city and state where you live at that time.

If you do it as a trust, you engrave the name of the trust and the city and state.

My trust is "Lastname NFA Trust" but some go with just their initials and "Trust" or whatever.

As to your other questions:

1. I don't want to start an argument here but I'm leaning towards purchasing a Gun Trust through SilencerShop.com. I can't justify $500+ for a trust and then the stamp. If anyone has any info on someone local, I'm all ears. Seen Rusty's name thrown around a lot and I'll reach out to him.

You certainly can't go wrong with any of the IPs here. I got mine done by 199trust.com and so have several others - it was $60 or so and works just fine. People will argue all day both ways about this, but in the end you have to do what you feel comfortable with.

2. Once i get the trust, what's next? - I assume at some point I'll have to fill out Form 1 and submit it, once approved then i apply for the stamp or does Form 1 approval get you the stamp?

After you have the trust paperwork, get it all signed and notarized or whatever you need to do. Then, scan it so you have a PDF copy. Then go to atfonline.gov, and click on "E-Forms." Set up an account, and when you're logged in you can fill out the Form 1 and e-file it (and pay the $200 with a credit card). Then you wait. My last Form 1 took less than 90 days with e-File.

There is a good guide on e-Filing a Form 1 right here.

JohnnyE · Mar 24, 2016

Other than inheritance issues, isn't a key difference between trust versus individual ownership the fact that, if individually owned, YOU must be with the firearm at the range, whereas, if your trust owns the firearm, as trustee, you can add someone as a beneficiary to the trust (and keep that paperwork in your safe...you don't file it with BATFE when you make these kind of amendments), and then trust can give them possession of the firearm for them to take to the range, so you don't have to be there. That to me is a big convenience. Everyone in the family can be added as a beneficiary, and anyone can grab the rifle and head to the range, without any of the others needing to go with them.

Sundazes · Mar 24, 2016

JohnnyE said:
Other than inheritance issues, isn't a key difference between trust versus individual ownership the fact that, if individually owned, YOU must be with the firearm at the range, whereas, if your trust owns the firearm, as trustee, you can add someone as a beneficiary to the trust (and keep that paperwork in your safe...you don't file it with BATFE when you make these kind of amendments), and then trust can give them possession of the firearm for them to take to the range, so you don't have to be there. That to me is a big convenience. Everyone in the family can be added as a beneficiary, and anyone can grab the rifle and head to the range, without any of the others needing to go with them.

The person would have to be added as a trustee to have legal possession, not a beneficiary.
IANAL

Sticky · Mar 24, 2016

sundazes said:
The person would have to be added as a trustee to have legal possession, not a beneficiary.
IANAL

Correct... the beneficiary has no legal power nor can they 'use' the weapons (until the contents of the trust are dispersed to them upon death of the Grantor). Those such as family that you want to share with would need to be added as trustees and then have also the power to act legally within the trust (add firearms or other NFA items to it, for example). They will also be subject to the new requirements come July this year.
IANAL either, but I did some research before I got a trust.. lol

Hawkeye · Mar 24, 2016

Sticky said:
Correct... the beneficiary has no legal power nor can they 'use' the weapons (until the contents of the trust are dispersed to them upon death of the Grantor). Those such as family that you want to share with would need to be added as trustees and then have also the power to act legally within the trust (add firearms or other NFA items to it, for example). They will also be subject to the new requirements come July this year.
IANAL either, but I did some research before I got a trust.. lol

Exactly.

The other thing to note is that not only can they add things to the trust, they can also dispose of the trust's property as they see fit, i.e. sell the property of the trust or give it away. Thus, it behooves you to be very careful about who is a trustee.

Sticky · Mar 24, 2016

Hawkeye said:
Exactly.

The other thing to note is that not only can they add things to the trust, they can also dispose of the trust's property as they see fit, i.e. sell the property of the trust or give it away. Thus, it behooves you to be very careful about who is a trustee.

Yes.. precisely!

Cal68 · Mar 25, 2016

I got my trust done through Russ Roby (you can find his postings on MDS) and it was great. Just needed to answer a few simple questions and the trust was in the mail a few days later. I needed to make some changes after Russ had created and mailed the trust documents to me and he did so immediately and did not charge me a penny. Great guy and terrific service.

I believe that SilencerCo will also create a trust for you through their online system. They seem to have a template that you fill out and a trust will show up in the mail. I just felt more comfortable doing business with a real attorney and I'm glad I did because of the above mentioned changes that I had to make after I had initially filled out the paperwork.

Cal68

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