Montgomery County Bill 21-22

[Sunrise]

Looks like they already added it... https://www.marylandshallissue.org/jmain/counselor-s-corner/msi-v-montgomery-county

Very nicely done MSI.

11/29/22 - Plaintiffs' Second Amended Complaint
11/29/22 - Plaintiffs' Notice of Intent to Submit a Motion for a TRO and Preliminary Injunction

 

[eruby]

I'd like to know from an officer that conducts traffic stops with todays badge cams how this will more than likely be handled during a pull over. I'd also like to know if officers have been or will be briefed on this given the rise of carry permits.

@spoon059

@ADR

I think you are both MoCo. Can you speak to this?

 

[delaneyesq]

Looks like they already added it... https://www.marylandshallissue.org/jmain/counselor-s-corner/msi-v-montgomery-county

This is great information! Thanks for the link!


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[swinokur]

ADR is Federal

 

[spoon059]

I'd also like to know if officers have been or will be briefed on this given the rise of carry permits.

No guidance since Bruen, not a single word about this new county law either.

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[swinokur]

Guess you can’t enforce what you aren’t told about

 

[mpollan1]

I'd like to know from an officer that conducts traffic stops with todays badge cams how this will more than likely be handled during a pull over. I'd also like to know if officers have been or will be briefed on this given the rise of carry permits.

Spoon responded to the second part so I will respond to the underlined. Disclaimer, I am not LE and never have been.

I think this will be handled pretty much like any traffic stop and the outcome will be at the discretion of the officer. I have and sometimes still do travel with a heavy foot. Sometimes I get written up, sometimes I get a written warning and sometimes I have received a verbal warning. Fortunately I have mostly gotten away with it.

 

[esqappellate]

Mark P is a master litigator.

The Clown show from Mo Co has no idea what’s coming

Why, thank you, sir! And BTW, if the folks here on MDS aren't members of MSI, I gotta ask "Why The HELL not?"

 

[rbird7282]

That's for actual crimes. For violations by law-abiding people like us who run afoul of bills like this, they prosecute and wreck lives, on purpose. Because this bill isn't about keeping criminals from doing harm. It's about punishing you for erring in your world view on the side of liberty - and that's inexcusable in a blue state's deep-blue county of power. They don't hate guns, or crimes committed with them by career criminals. They hate YOU.

No hyperbole was harmed in the making of this comment.

100% FACT. F Montgomery County.


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[Afrikeber]

Spoon responded to the second part so I will respond to the underlined. Disclaimer, I am not LE and never have been.

I think this will be handled pretty much like any traffic stop and the outcome will be at the discretion of the officer. I have and sometimes still do travel with a heavy foot. Sometimes I get written up, sometimes I get a written warning and sometimes I have received a verbal warning. Fortunately I have mostly gotten away with it.

With all due respect I don’t want my freedoms determined by a persons discretion.

My 2nd Amendment rights have already been described by the honorable justice Thomas, everyone else can keep their discretion for their own personal matters.

 

[swinokur]

Hey Mo Co

 

[Notch347]

Both issues are direct infringements on the 2A, and under Bruen are plainly naughty given the Thomas ruling's clarification that it's about Text, History, and Tradition.

In both cases!

With respect to carry, Thomas addressed it directly in Bruen (since that's what the NYSRP case was about). But in saying that interest-balancing tap dancing around an enumerated right is off limits, and that TH&T is the proper guide: home brew firearms are well within 2A bounds, if for no other reason than that the notion of serialized (only!) firearms being the way of things at the time the Bill of Rights was ratified is plainly nonsense. So it's nonsense to think it WAS The Way, and thus it's nonsense now to consider it The Way.

MSI is smart to look at both as being aspects of the same fundamental issue addressed by Bruen: the 2A means what it says, and the ample history of the founders' understanding of things (and intent) and common custom means that MoCo's multiple attacks on gun owners in the county (or those who dare tread here!) really are all one thing to fight: infringement on the Bill of Rights by our county government. I heartily applaud the conflation of these two cases into the single one they really are - both for practical and expediency reasons, but also because it forces coverage of this to focus on the larger issue of constitutionally guaranteed liberty, not hairsplitting over individual little death-by-a-thousand-cuts slices, one wound at a time.

Thank you for that well thought out explanation.

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[mpollan1]

With all due respect I don’t want my freedoms determined by a persons discretion.

My 2nd Amendment rights have already been described by the honorable justice Thomas, everyone else can keep their discretion for their own personal matters.

Yes sir, I agree with you to the nth degree. All I was trying to say was that officers do have discretion. Traffic stops when I was speeding were an example. That this sh!t is even being discussed is a travesty given the Second Amendment.

 

[spoon059]

Spoon responded to the second part so I will respond to the underlined. Disclaimer, I am not LE and never have been.

I think this will be handled pretty much like any traffic stop and the outcome will be at the discretion of the officer. I have and sometimes still do travel with a heavy foot. Sometimes I get written up, sometimes I get a written warning and sometimes I have received a verbal warning. Fortunately I have mostly gotten away with it.

Not sure if I addressed this before or in another thread, but with the advent of body cams and multiple levels of independent "random" BWC reviewing, I would guess that discretion will become a thing of the past.

MPDs gun unit caught a bunch of heat for legally seizing illegal guns off mopes in the city, legally submitting them as evidence, legally writing complete reports... but they declined to charge the criminals with the guns. I completely understand WHY they do this, because the AUSAs in DC often refuse to prosecute gun crimes. Why should the detectives go through the trouble of charging people, carrying paper the next morning, submitting guns for test fire, preparing testimony, etc when they know full well that the prosecutors won't follow through on the prosecution of the case???

Anywho, back on the subject. I just don't see officers feeling free to use discretion anymore. There will always be a record showing they didn't do something and there will always be someone (many of them are members on this forum) that will crucify an officer based upon half a story that they didn't like.

In the old days, if it was busy and you pulled over a drunk driver, you could have taken "alternative" measures to ensure the public safety and make sure that drunk driver wasn't a hazard to the community. Instead of taking 3-4 hours off the road to process a drunk driver and write a report, only to watch the prosecutor offer a PBJ plea, you could take 3 minutes to determine they were drunk and about 5 seconds in effort to relieve them of the ability to drive that particular vehicle for several hours, and be on your way to handle calls for service, etc. Now, if there is a video of you chucking some drunks keys into the woods, you'll likely go to jail. If there is video of you driving a drunk military member home, you'll be the first one attacked when they drive drunk 7 years later in a different state and people (again... many are members here) who will villify you and say that if you had arrested that drunk driver 7 years ago after the first offense, he wouldn't have driven drunk this time.

If you see a law abiding citizen with a gun in the back seat, make sure its not stolen and send them along their merry way and an indepenent anti-police Police Accountablity Board member sees that you didn't arrest the guy, you're gonna get suspended without pay. If you let a WHITE guy go, you're going to get fired and might lose your pension. If you let someone go that ultimately ends up committing a crime 10 years down the road, you had better believe they are going to come after your with criminal charges. I think discretion is on its death bed...

I just don't see officer discretion being a thing anymore, especially amongst the younger officers. I want to give this caveat though, I am in felony level investigations now. It is not my job to make traffic stops, and you can darn well believe that I don't have any intention of making any traffic stops ever again in my life. I wouldn't count on the average MCPD cop giving much discretion anymore though.

This is NOT legal advice, nor is it to be considered encouragement to violate any laws. Keep your gun concealed, don't get pulled over and shut your mouth. If you have to ultimately use your gun for defense... be very polite and very quiet.

 

[Sunrise]

Not sure if I addressed this before or in another thread, but with the advent of body cams and multiple levels of independent "random" BWC reviewing, I would guess that discretion will become a thing of the past.

MPDs gun unit caught a bunch of heat for legally seizing illegal guns off mopes in the city, legally submitting them as evidence, legally writing complete reports... but they declined to charge the criminals with the guns. I completely understand WHY they do this, because the AUSAs in DC often refuse to prosecute gun crimes. Why should the detectives go through the trouble of charging people, carrying paper the next morning, submitting guns for test fire, preparing testimony, etc when they know full well that the prosecutors won't follow through on the prosecution of the case???

Anywho, back on the subject. I just don't see officers feeling free to use discretion anymore. There will always be a record showing they didn't do something and there will always be someone (many of them are members on this forum) that will crucify an officer based upon half a story that they didn't like.

In the old days, if it was busy and you pulled over a drunk driver, you could have taken "alternative" measures to ensure the public safety and make sure that drunk driver wasn't a hazard to the community. Instead of taking 3-4 hours off the road to process a drunk driver and write a report, only to watch the prosecutor offer a PBJ plea, you could take 3 minutes to determine they were drunk and about 5 seconds in effort to relieve them of the ability to drive that particular vehicle for several hours, and be on your way to handle calls for service, etc. Now, if there is a video of you chucking some drunks keys into the woods, you'll likely go to jail. If there is video of you driving a drunk military member home, you'll be the first one attacked when they drive drunk 7 years later in a different state and people (again... many are members here) who will villify you and say that if you had arrested that drunk driver 7 years ago after the first offense, he wouldn't have driven drunk this time.

If you see a law abiding citizen with a gun in the back seat, make sure its not stolen and send them along their merry way and an indepenent anti-police Police Accountablity Board member sees that you didn't arrest the guy, you're gonna get suspended without pay. If you let a WHITE guy go, you're going to get fired and might lose your pension. If you let someone go that ultimately ends up committing a crime 10 years down the road, you had better believe they are going to come after your with criminal charges. I think discretion is on its death bed...

I just don't see officer discretion being a thing anymore, especially amongst the younger officers. I want to give this caveat though, I am in felony level investigations now. It is not my job to make traffic stops, and you can darn well believe that I don't have any intention of making any traffic stops ever again in my life. I wouldn't count on the average MCPD cop giving much discretion anymore though.

This is NOT legal advice, nor is it to be considered encouragement to violate any laws. Keep your gun concealed, don't get pulled over and shut your mouth. If you have to ultimately use your gun for defense... be very polite and very quiet.

Wow. Great post here. Very well said about this.

 

[Sunrise]

Hey Mo Co

That Second Amended Complaint by MSI along with the Notice of Intent to File a TRO and Preliminary Injunction definitely brought down the thunder.

I don't see this ending favorably for MoCo, but it's going to cost us our own tax dollars in the process. Oh well. It's the price that must be paid against these authoritarians.

 

[mpollan1]

Wow. Great post here. Very well said about this.

Yes thanks Spoon.

 

[swinokur]

So our cops lose discretion but the SA will keep letting felons go.

Great

 

[mpollan1]

That Second Amended Complaint by MSI along with the Notice of Intent to File a TRO and Preliminary Injunction definitely brought down the thunder.

I don't see this ending favorably for MoCo, but it's going to cost us our own tax dollars in the process. Oh well. It's the price that must be paid against these authoritarians.

Yup, I was involuntarily taxed by MoCo. I voluntarily "taxed" myself and contributed to MSI. Got two of my BILs to do the same. Taxation with representation FTMFW.

 

[babalou]

Not sure if I addressed this before or in another thread, but with the advent of body cams and multiple levels of independent "random" BWC reviewing, I would guess that discretion will become a thing of the past.

MPDs gun unit caught a bunch of heat for legally seizing illegal guns off mopes in the city, legally submitting them as evidence, legally writing complete reports... but they declined to charge the criminals with the guns. I completely understand WHY they do this, because the AUSAs in DC often refuse to prosecute gun crimes. Why should the detectives go through the trouble of charging people, carrying paper the next morning, submitting guns for test fire, preparing testimony, etc when they know full well that the prosecutors won't follow through on the prosecution of the case???

Anywho, back on the subject. I just don't see officers feeling free to use discretion anymore. There will always be a record showing they didn't do something and there will always be someone (many of them are members on this forum) that will crucify an officer based upon half a story that they didn't like.

In the old days, if it was busy and you pulled over a drunk driver, you could have taken "alternative" measures to ensure the public safety and make sure that drunk driver wasn't a hazard to the community. Instead of taking 3-4 hours off the road to process a drunk driver and write a report, only to watch the prosecutor offer a PBJ plea, you could take 3 minutes to determine they were drunk and about 5 seconds in effort to relieve them of the ability to drive that particular vehicle for several hours, and be on your way to handle calls for service, etc. Now, if there is a video of you chucking some drunks keys into the woods, you'll likely go to jail. If there is video of you driving a drunk military member home, you'll be the first one attacked when they drive drunk 7 years later in a different state and people (again... many are members here) who will villify you and say that if you had arrested that drunk driver 7 years ago after the first offense, he wouldn't have driven drunk this time.

If you see a law abiding citizen with a gun in the back seat, make sure its not stolen and send them along their merry way and an indepenent anti-police Police Accountablity Board member sees that you didn't arrest the guy, you're gonna get suspended without pay. If you let a WHITE guy go, you're going to get fired and might lose your pension. If you let someone go that ultimately ends up committing a crime 10 years down the road, you had better believe they are going to come after your with criminal charges. I think discretion is on its death bed...

I just don't see officer discretion being a thing anymore, especially amongst the younger officers. I want to give this caveat though, I am in felony level investigations now. It is not my job to make traffic stops, and you can darn well believe that I don't have any intention of making any traffic stops ever again in my life. I wouldn't count on the average MCPD cop giving much discretion anymore though.

This is NOT legal advice, nor is it to be considered encouragement to violate any laws. Keep your gun concealed, don't get pulled over and shut your mouth. If you have to ultimately use your gun for defense... be very polite and very quiet.

I am so ghey for you! Great post. Thank you!