ToneGrail
MSI, NRA, & SAF Member
when you already have your gun drawn on him and you tell him to put his hands up regardless of if he is actually armed? My instructor said that he has to be armed.
I guess before. I would think that you could reasonably articulate that you feared he was reaching for a weapon. Correct me if I'm mistaken.Is that before or after you clearly heard him say "I'm going to kill you?"
What I'm getting at is a corpse can't be brought into court to testify against you, so if you clearly heard him say "I'm going to kill you" and he was reaching for what you believed was a gun, no one could testify that's not accurate.I guess before.
Ahh understood!What I'm getting at is a corpse can't be brought into court to testify against you, so if you clearly heard him say "I'm going to kill you" and he was reaching for what you believed was a gun, no one could testify that's not accurate.
This is not legal advice!
MPJI-Cr 5:02 Defense of Habitation — Deadly Force
You have heard evidence that the defendant acted in defense of [his] [her] home. Defense of one’s home is a defense, and you are required to find the defendant not guilty if all of the following five factors are present:
(1) [name of person] entered [or attempted to enter] the defendant’s home;
(2) the defendant believed that [name of person] intended to commit a crime that would involve an imminent threat of death or serious bodily harm;
(3) the defendant reasonably believed that [name of person] intended to commit such a crime;
(4) the defendant believed that the force that [he] [she] used against [name of person] was necessary to prevent imminent death or serious bodily harm; and
(5) the defendant reasonably believed that such force was necessary.
In order to convict the defendant, the State must show that the defense of one’s home does not apply in this case by proving, beyond a reasonable doubt, that at least one of the five factors previously stated was absent.
I'm talking about a home invader.This is situationally dependent. I'd wonder why a regular citizen would have someone held at gunpoint just standing there without first identifying a weapon. Police? Sure, but why would a regular citizen be in that position to start with?
If you're drawing a firearm, it should be to use it. You should be using it because there's a clear and articulable reason to expect severe bodily injury or death that you need to stop right then as you're drawing your gun.
Like I said, situationally dependent. Now with that information, you've got both more legal protections(md's civil immunity and castle doctrine) and more justification to be giving commands with a gun in hand. At that point, again, you'd need to be able to give an articulable reason why the movement presented a reasonable fear of bodily injury or death. Since the person is already committing a felony to be in your home, it's reasonable to fear that the movement is a threat. This is especially true if the criminal is breaking in to your house while people are home. If the motivation was to steal, they'd hit an empty house. If people are there, it's reasonable to assume the criminal is interested in causing harm to the inhabitants and NOT just taking property.I'm talking about a home invader.
I've been putting off registering for a W&C course for a while now, not because of them being full, finding a good location, or even cost at this point. I'm worried that I'm going to end up in a class that goes way too "above & beyond", doesn't fully understand the law, or teaches things like this.One instructor I had recommended writing a letter, documenting your training, your thoughts on use of force, how and when you expect to respond to a threat and everything else along these lines that you can think of. Then mail that letter, certified mail to yourself so that it can be opened in an event like this to show your previous considerations on the matter.
I'd only draw when planning to use it. But I'll be real honest, even if someone is breaking into or broken into my home, unless I think they are an immediately deadly threat, I don't think I could shoot them without giving them a verbal warning. Sure, if they are knife distance and I run in to an intruder in my home, they are an immediate threat. If some guy breaks into my basement and I confront them armed, they could easily be 20 or 30 yards away from me if they are on the other side of my basement. Unless I can see they have a gun, or they give me a reasonable belief they might have a gun, I am giving them a verbal warning and commands. They start looking like they are reaching for a weapon or doing anything other than following my commands or obviously trying to turn tail and RUN (and not running towards or near anyone else in the house) then I think they are an imminent deadly threat.This is situationally dependent. I'd wonder why a regular citizen would have someone held at gunpoint just standing there without first identifying a weapon. Police? Sure, but why would a regular citizen be in that position to start with?
If you're drawing a firearm, it should be to use it. You should be using it because there's a clear and articulable reason to expect severe bodily injury or death that you need to stop right then as you're drawing your gun.
On the last, it doesn't matter. Tell police your name and that you are the homeowner, where the firearm is, where the intruder is, I wish to speak to my lawyer. That's it. No one else is injured if they ask. Nothing else. Not why you shot them, what the intruder was doing, nothing. Just the basics so that they can feel safe, render any possible aid needed, who you are. Then they ask any other questions through your lawyer. If you do not have a lawyer, you can request one through legal aid, or reach out to find one (generally that will be allowed). Or of course you can ask your spouse to find a lawyer real quick if police insist on arresting you.Like I said, situationally dependent. Now with that information, you've got both more legal protections(md's civil immunity and castle doctrine) and more justification to be giving commands with a gun in hand. At that point, again, you'd need to be able to give an articulable reason why the movement presented a reasonable fear of bodily injury or death. Since the person is already committing a felony to be in your home, it's reasonable to fear that the movement is a threat. This is especially true if the criminal is breaking in to your house while people are home. If the motivation was to steal, they'd hit an empty house. If people are there, it's reasonable to assume the criminal is interested in causing harm to the inhabitants and NOT just taking property.
Interesting sidenote, it would be very easy for a home intruder to swing by a kitchen and grab a large knife from the knife-block, so even if the criminal entered the house unarmed, there's no saying the criminal was unarmed when moving to his(likely) waistband.
However the situation started and went, following it the only person who speaks to police should be your lawyer. It's likely you'll have a cardiac emergency and may need to go to the hospital, away from police, until it resolves.
This is situationally dependent. I'd wonder why a regular citizen would have someone held at gunpoint just standing there without first identifying a weapon.
Our instructor taught the same thing, think about every situation before you start carrying and decide what you would do. It might change RL but you should give thought to it. He didn't mention mailing it to keep a record but I don't see how it could hurtI've been putting off registering for a W&C course for a while now, not because of them being full, finding a good location, or even cost at this point. I'm worried that I'm going to end up in a class that goes way too "above & beyond", doesn't fully understand the law, or teaches things like this.
Susan Rice did a similar thing to this in the last few days of the Obama admin. Some sort of CYA attempt. I don't think many people bought it.
Thank you for the advice. I've been carrying for a while now when I'm out of state. What I've determined, which I think covers this discussion, the alcohol thread, the "Carrie" magazine thread, the restaurant thread, is that everyone needs to do what they feel is right for them. There's a thousand answers and opinions to all of these hypothetical questions due to the ambiguity of how the laws are written.Our instructor taught the same thing, think about every situation before you start carrying and decide what you would do. It might change RL but you should give thought to it. He didn't mention mailing it to keep a record but I don't see how it could hurt