Proposed repeal of Pittman Robertson Act - Thoughts?

[teratos]

I missed that. That would be a fair comparison. But if we can't have an "extra" tax on such items, why should they be taxed at all? Shouldn't sales tax go away too?

Listen, I'm all for ALL taxes going away. It's just that the P-A tax would be the last one I'd want to go. It serves a legit purpose.

So if a tax on your speech paid for something legit, you would be cool with that?

We have fought so long to get these rights recognized and now we are going to continue to fight to get them recognized as first class rights. Allowing a tax on the implements necessary to exercise a right makes it a second class right. It might seem "lame" to you, but I take my rights seriously.

 

[teratos]

The Dems and Rinos are just trying to steal the PRA conservation money to funnel into their own pet projects and social agendas.

Pittman-Robinson is the one government program that works from the FDR New Deal nightmare.

Not seeing how PRA's excise tax is anti-2A if it helps promote hunting and wildlife conservation.

Is hunting core to the 2A? Are you making their argument for them?

Sure, excise tax on hunting supplies, tents, hiking boots, whatever the fvck you want to. You cannot tax guns and defensive ammo. Not if you consider it a right. Do you?

 

[ericoak]

Sure, excise tax on hunting supplies, tents, hiking boots, whatever the fvck you want to. You cannot tax guns and defensive ammo. Not if you consider it a right. Do you?

The truth is that most of the people posting in support of PR like how the funding is spent and would actually prefer that nonhunters like myself help subsidize their hobbies instead of raising the PR tax on their hunting firearms and ammunition and exempting non hunting equipment.

 

[lazarus]

I don’t want to see the Pittman Roberson act go.
With that be stated, they say this tax is unconstitutional because you can’t tax a right.
If that’s the case sales tax on gun and ammo sales is also unconstitutional.

What about the tax stamps for NFA items? That is definitely a tax on a right for sure.

What about corporate taxes on the companies making firearms and ammo? That sure drives the cost up because they have to charge us more if they want to make the same profit.

IMHO, this can go really far down the rabbit hole of "you can't add any tax or costs because it is a right". I am sympathetic to cause of fees or taxes on keeping and bearing arms. And yes, I am aware that taxing the arms themselves can make it more difficult to keep and bear arms by purchasing them.

However, I'd be more concerned about a tax intended to make it difficult to purchase arms. Like the proposed "AWB by taxation" proposals. Not ones that tax "arms" to provide a specific government service to the public like support of public lands, access to public lands and firearms training. Nor do I have any real sympathy when other taxes are levied in a neutral manner, such as sales taxes or corporate taxes which are generally applied the same (if anything, things shouldn't be exempt from sales tax, rather than the other way around and then reduce all sales taxes to compensate).

 

[teratos]

The truth is that most of the people posting in support of PR like how the funding is spent and would actually prefer that nonhunters like myself help subsidize their hobbies instead of raising the PR tax on their hunting firearms and ammunition and exempting non hunting equipment.

We need to be very careful what we ask for. If we let the right continue to be seen as a second class right, then that's what will happen. We need to jealously guard it.

 

[lazarus]

So if a tax on your speech paid for something legit, you would be cool with that?

We have fought so long to get these rights recognized and now we are going to continue to fight to get them recognized as first class rights. Allowing a tax on the implements necessary to exercise a right makes it a second class right. It might seem "lame" to you, but I take my rights seriously.

There are taxes on many things that facilitate speech. Permits are required for public demonstrations in most cases and fees are required for those and have been upheld for a couple of centuries. There are taxes on things like sales of billboard space, FCC license fees for using public spectrum for radio and TV. Etc.

No, there is no tax for you to yell from the street corner something, wear a shirt (but that shirt, unless you wove and dyed it yourself, you probably paid sales tax on it for most people in the US), but the vast majority of the forms of speech today, you ARE paying some sort of tax related to that form of speech somewhere in the process. Either you directly, or the person providing the platform is paying tax somewhere in there. For example, several states DO tax online, radio and TV advertising sales. The FCC also charges license and spectrum fees. That's not all that different than the IRS and state levying FFL fees on manufacturers as well as PR and sales taxes on firearms manufactured and sold respectively.

 

[TheOriginalMexicanBob]

If the government really wanted to help conservation...they should be advocating for and encouraging citizens to buy more firearms and ammunition. Revenues would increase and the environment would be better protected.

 

[John from MD]

You don’t see how making self defense equipment more expensive to pay for things that have nothing to do with self defense is anti 2A?

Wtf does hunting have to do with 2A anyways. It’s entire purpose is to allow the people to fight an out of control government, not shoot birds and deer for fun.

There are many public shooting ranges in this country that were made possible or are continuing in use due to the funds from the Pittman Robertson Act. Many Americans learned to shoot on these ranges and, as such, are part of the Militia. I believe the Militia is mentioned somewhere in the Constitution.

And, for the bottom line, here is how George Mason spelled it out.

"I ask, sir, what is the militia? It is the whole people except for a few public officials."
George Mason

 

[ericoak]

There are many public shooting ranges in this country that were made possible or are continuing in use due to the funds from the Pittman Robertson Act. Many Americans learned to shoot on these ranges and, as such, are part of the Militia. I believe the Militia is mentioned somewhere in the Constitution.

And, for the bottom line, here is how George Mason spelled it out.

"I ask, sir, what is the militia? It is the whole people except for a few public officials."
George Mason

I pay for my gun range, I’m not a socialist who thinks other people should pay for it.

And considering the small percentage that is spent on public ranges, that’s a pretty weak argument for keeping the tax anyways.

 

[Brickman301]

What about corporate taxes on the companies making firearms and ammo? That sure drives the cost up because they have to charge us more if they want to make the same profit.

Umm…. That’s exactly how this tax works. The firearms and ammo manufacturers/ importers are taxed. Of course that makes their prices higher, which it passed along to us.
When you buy ammo or a new firearm you aren’t directly paying the tax, the manufacturer or importer has paid it already.

Like I said I’d like for it to stay. But if it’s repelled, I don’t see how tax stamps for NFA items could remain.

 

[babalou]

I think the taxation of 401(k) and IRA money was vastly misunderstood. There is no way they could tax that money before it was withdrawn. However, they wanted to reduce the AGI limitations for contributors, which would have made contributions taxable income IF you were still dumb enough to make those contributions if you were over the AGI limits. That proposal failed.

Then, Biden wanted to do away with the step up in basis upon the death of a taxpayer. That is dead too, no pun intended.

We can have a long discussion about all the ridiculous taxes out there. I spend a good amount of my life trying to avoid them and help my clients avoid them.

was AOC a client? I kid

 

[alucard0822]

We need to be very careful what we ask for. If we let the right continue to be seen as a second class right, then that's what will happen. We need to jealously guard it.

agreed, they have shown their hand, the NFA itself was intended to be a prohibitive tax to "ban" firearms way back before they had the balls to do it outright. Most recently the dude in CA pushing a 10X tax on ARs, any time there is a "special" tax, or changes to existing taxes for a single category of goods, we should be leery, especially when it singles out the implements of a civil right. The people that implemented a special tax on firearms are not our friends, even if the things funded by those taxes are good. There is absolutely nothing keeping ANYONE from donating to conservation, those supporting the PRA are trying to hold my rights hostage in order to force me to do what they deem as virtuous.

 

[Song Dog]

RETURN (Repealing Excise Tax on Unalienable Rights Now) our Constitutional Rights Act of 2022 or the RETURN our Constitutional Rights Act of 2022

This bill repeals the excise taxes on firearms and ammunition and on bows and arrows. It also repeals the excise tax on transferring and making firearms under the National Firearm Act.

Cosponsors - H.R.8167 - 117th Congress (2021-2022): RETURN our Constitutional Rights Act of 2022​

Cosponsors of H.R.8167 - 117th Congress (2021-2022): RETURN our Constitutional Rights Act of 2022
www.congress.gov

My 2 cents, Bill has 58 Sponsors, all GOP Rep's, its a double edge sword, repeals P/R funding and fee's under NFA (National Firearms Act) which are fee's for applying to ATF under NFA for buying Class 2 & Class 3 suppressors/machines guns (et al).

Andy Harris is only Chesapeake Region Congressional Rep signed on as Sponsor so MD Forum members need to express their opinions to him.

Andy Harris

Sponsored legislation by Andy Harris, the Representative from Maryland - in Congress from 2021 through Present

www.congress.gov

 

[lazarus]

Umm…. That’s exactly how this tax works. The firearms and ammo manufacturers/ importers are taxed. Of course that makes their prices higher, which it passed along to us.
When you buy ammo or a new firearm you aren’t directly paying the tax, the manufacturer or importer has paid it already.

Like I said I’d like for it to stay. But if it’s repelled, I don’t see how tax stamps for NFA items could remain.

I agree. I am in support of the PR tax. I was just pointing out that the same logic that PR tax is an constitutional tax on a RIGHT, then you can go back and argue that any kind of tax or fee on ANY part of the firearms industry is also unconstitutional.

I disagree and I also think few to no courts including SCOTUS would likely find such either.

Taxes have been part of history, text and tradition on top of that...

A stronger argument would be that a tax or fee on actually keeping or bearing arms is a lot more likely to be unconstitutional versus a tax on the sale of arms or a tax on the manufacturer of the arms. The former would be more akin to taxing/fees for voter registration. The later would be more like taxes or fees on voting machine manufacturers or the suppliers of printed ballots.

 

[Inigoes]

If the government really wanted to help conservation...they should be advocating for and encouraging citizens to buy more firearms and ammunition. Revenues would increase and the environment would be better protected.

That is how Maryland has been buying up land for its green infrastructure project.

Look at the signs as you enter those areas, normally a corner of the sign will say it was paid for by Pittman Robertson funds.

 

[bcr229]

If P-R taxes go away then so does one of the ATF's reasons for existence. The primary difference between FFL's licensed as manufacturers versus dealers is manufacturers can file P-R tax returns and pay the excise taxes, while dealers don't.

Manufacturing without a license is based in tax law, not criminal law.

 

[traveller]

Who is driving this ?

 

[lazarus]

Who is driving this ?

Mostly the freedom caucus as near as I can tell (the furthest to the right, and the most "the only good government is no government" part of the GOP).

 

[traveller]

Mostly the freedom caucus as near as I can tell (the furthest to the right, and the most "the only good government is no government" part of the GOP).

Ia as anti-tax as anyone, as long as the P-R funds are truly restricted to the stated purpose, it's one of the few taxes I don't mind paying.

 

[KIBarrister]

I'm late to the party, but let me just toss in: All Taxation is Theft. I don't care how "good" of a cause it goes to. Governments using taxation to assist any purpose is universally the least efficient way to accomplish anything.