Giving an employee permission to carry/access to handgun?

[AliasNeo07]

Hey everybody,

First of all I know most of the responses I get will contain "IANAL", and I'll consult an attorney before I do anything, but I wanted to get some opinions here (which are generally correct). I did a search but couldn't quite narrow down what I was looking for.

Scenario:
I am co-owner of a business and lease the property. Therefore I know I can carry on property/keep a firearm on premise.

What is the deal with allowing an employee (who is not a co-owner) access to said firearm?

Now, I'm not asking about whether I should do this other than the legality. I realize the seriousness of allowing someone access to a firearm, and I would never allow anyone access or permit them to carry unless I felt 100% confident in their ability to use the firearm safely and effectively, god forbid it should become necessary.

The business is open late and there have been armed robberies lately within a 5 mile radius. We do have cash on premises.

Just curious about the legality of permitting access to it (not so much carrying, although I am curious about that too), and what if any liability I, or the company would incur should there be a self defense shooting by someone who was not listed as an owner.

My gut tells me that if I, as co-owner, give an employee permission, they can carry or have access to the weapon, but I could be wrong.

Thanks all.

 

[redeemed.man]

Hey everybody,

First of all I know most of the responses I get will contain "IANAL", and I'll consult an attorney before I do anything, but I wanted to get some opinions here (which are generally correct). I did a search but couldn't quite narrow down what I was looking for.

Scenario:
I am co-owner of a business and lease the property. Therefore I know I can carry on property/keep a firearm on premise.

What is the deal with allowing an employee (who is not a co-owner) access to said firearm?

Now, I'm not asking about whether I should do this other than the legality. I realize the seriousness of allowing someone access to a firearm, and I would never allow anyone access or permit them to carry unless I felt 100% confident in their ability to use the firearm safely and effectively, god forbid it should become necessary.

The business is open late and there have been armed robberies lately within a 5 mile radius. We do have cash on premises.

Just curious about the legality of permitting access to it (not so much carrying, although I am curious about that too), and what if any liability I, or the company would incur should there be a self defense shooting by someone who was not listed as an owner.

My gut tells me that if I, as co-owner, give an employee permission, they can carry or have access to the weapon, but I could be wrong.

Thanks all.

The employee must be a manager/supervisor. Carry applies to the confines of the building and does not include outside/parking lot.

There is MD case law out of PG County on this. I believe the case is Blue vs. MD or something like that.

Edit: here it is http://caselaw.findlaw.com/md-court-of-appeals/1645512.html

 

[DubTap21]

In for info.

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[davsco]

The employee must be a manager/supervisor. Carry applies to the confines of the building and does not include outside/parking lot.

don't most if not all employees at gun stores carry? presumably all are not managers or supervisors?

 

[BurtonRW]

don't most if not all employees at gun stores carry? presumably all are not managers or supervisors?

Most, if not all, gun store employees can get carry permits - even if restricted.

Besides, there's always the sales manager, rifle manager, shotgun manager, pistol manager, accessories manager, etc.

-Rob

 

[Mr H]

If I remember it right, the words in the statute are "supervisory employee".

If I had a business space, anyone I trusted would have the 'supervisory' capacity for the safety of everyone else, and the customers.

Oh... IANAL...

 

[redeemed.man]

don't most if not all employees at gun stores carry? presumably all are not managers or supervisors?

They have permits for the most part. Big difference. The case law is for an employee without a permit. Additionally a business owner can call everyone a manager or supervisor if they choose to do so.

 

[AliasNeo07]

If I remember it right, the words in the statute are "supervisory employee".

If I had a business space, anyone I trusted would have the 'supervisory' capacity for the safety of everyone else, and the customers.

Oh... IANAL...

Well, she would be. She would be the manager on duty.

That is interesting. I didn't realize the statute went so far as to specify the "rank" of the employee permitted to carry. I will have to try to find this statute.

 

[Biggfoot44]

4-203 ( aka THE Handgun Carry statute) Yes, the language over the Place of Business aspects was hotly debated in 1972, and it says what it says delibertly.


As noted multiple times, designated Supervisory Employees can carry ( business premises as defined) with permision of owner.

The Wisdom is between you and uour supervisory employee, we don't know him/ her, so decision is on you.

Your exposure and liability is a conversation between your lawyer, insurance broker, and your conscience.

 

[swinokur]

IMO, the supervisor designation should be a written statement by the owner, naming the employee by name and then notarized.

May prevent any legal entanglements in the event of an incident.

Oh and IANAL either.

 

[PapiBarcelona]

don't most if not all employees at gun stores carry? presumably all are not managers or supervisors?

I'd also take a guess that since a gun shop/gun range is a destination in the transport law for a handgun, that's how that also works.

 

[CypherPunk]

Good advice here. Read and understand the law.
If I'm an employee, I want permission and supervisory status in writing.
If I'm the employer, I want well trained, mature employees, with good decision making skills and liability insurance.
Don't leave the building without a MHP.


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[RoadDawg]

Suggestion...

If it were my business to run...

Documentation:
• Assignment to supervisor rank of employee
• Certificate of training and qualification
• Annual recertification schedule and compliance records
• Insurance record showing named employee/s as bonded
• Release of indemnity... Employee signed document stating that the employee understands ALL state laws regarding the use/carry of a firearm while employed. And, that any violation of state law while armed is reason for termination and acceptance of liability for actions by said employee.

Training:
• Each employee, so designated, would be required to receive training and pass a qualifying course of live fire. No pass = No carry.

Title:
• "Security Supervisor" for designated employee, while on premises.


IANAL...

 

[Biggfoot44]

Back in the day, quote from owner " OK. Don't do anything stupid."

Of course he was armed too, for similar reasons.

 

[BigSteve57]

Suggestion...

If it were my business to run...

Documentation:
• Assignment to supervisor rank of employee
• Certificate of training and qualification
• Annual recertification schedule and compliance records
• Insurance record showing named employee/s as bonded
• Release of indemnity... Employee signed document stating that the employee understands ALL state laws regarding the use/carry of a firearm while employed. And, that any violation of state law while armed is reason for termination and acceptance of liability for actions by said employee.

Training:
• Each employee, so designated, would be required to receive training and pass a qualifying course of live fire. No pass = No carry.

Title:
• "Security Supervisor" for designated employee, while on premises.


IANAL...

Do you have a specific course you would recommend? Perhaps something from the NRA or an IP?


I would like to take such a course.

 

[CypherPunk]

Do you have a specific course you would recommend? Perhaps something from the NRA or an IP?


I would like to take such a course.

As an employer, I would require NRA Basic Pistol, PPITH, PPOTH, Advanced Pistol and definitely MAG-40 (lawful use of force). Might also include some escalation of force, empty hand and retail loss prevention training.

I would reimburse the employee's costs upon successful completion.

For annual recert, I would come as close to imitating LEO recertification as I could. MAG has students shoot the FBI Course in half the time at a greater distance.

This gives you the opportunity to defend against a negligence claim in court that your armed supervisory employees are trained to even higher standards.


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[BigSteve57]

As an employer, I would require NRA Basic Pistol, PPITH, PPOTH, Advanced Pistol and definitely MAG-40 (lawful use of force). Might also include some escalation of force, empty hand and retail loss prevention training.

I would reimburse the employee's costs upon successful completion.

For annual recert, I would come as close to imitating LEO recertification as I could. MAG has students shoot the FBI Course in half the time at a greater distance.

This gives you the opportunity to defend against a negligence claim in court that your armed supervisory employees are trained to even higher standards.


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Thanks! I asked because I was considering employment at a place where I might be open carrying.

I was thinking of taking a security guard course but it looks like you have to be already hired or in the process of being hired to take the courses.

 

[CypherPunk]

Thanks! I asked because I was considering employment at a place where I might be open carrying.

I was thinking of taking a security guard course but it looks like you have to be already hired or in the process of being hired to take the courses.

If I were an employee, who an employer asked/required to be armed, I would ask/require a letter stating that I was a supervisory employee and required to be armed.

I would also require that I be a named insured on a liability insurance policy.


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[AliasNeo07]

As an employer, I would require NRA Basic Pistol, PPITH, PPOTH, Advanced Pistol and definitely MAG-40 (lawful use of force). Might also include some escalation of force, empty hand and retail loss prevention training.

I would reimburse the employee's costs upon successful completion.

For annual recert, I would come as close to imitating LEO recertification as I could. MAG has students shoot the FBI Course in half the time at a greater distance.

This gives you the opportunity to defend against a negligence claim in court that your armed supervisory employees are trained to even higher standards.


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That's a really good idea.

 

[CypherPunk]

That's a really good idea.

Not my idea. Credit: Massod Ayoob


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