ATF Proposed Rule 41P

[fred333]

I'm submitting as many forms for these things (the stamps) as I can afford to get into the pre-July pipeline before the boob in the White House or his agents feel like issuing any further executive orders, clarifications or infringements....

 

[vgplayer]

I guess it still remains to be seen. Prince law and others know that the ATF is misinterpreting the new rules.

If they don't change thier stance, fewer people will be using trusts. And no one will be able to efile.

Sounds like a win for the ATF.

 

[dontpanic]

Sounds like a win for the ATF.

Buying as an individual is easier for a lot of people now. With no CLEO sign off, a lot of people who had to use a trust, can now buy as individuals.

I'll miss the form 1 efile, but mailing it does not seem too hard.

 

[Boss94]

I'm submitting as many forms for these things (the stamps) as I can afford to get into the pre-July pipeline before the boob in the White House or his agents feel like issuing any further executive orders, clarifications or infringements....

Where did you get that shirt ???? So in English (I'm still trying to sort all this new info out ) what's the short version of prints and picture info ?

 

[Pinecone]

http://www.russianrouletteclothing.bigcartel.com/product/ban-the-atf

In the 90s, I shot a lot of USPSA. One guy I got to know wore a "Ban the ATF" hat.

New shooters would ask him if it was smart to wear such a hat. He would tell them, "It goes so well with this." Which sweeping back his outer garment to show his badge. An ATF badge.

 

[fred333]

Where did you get that shirt ???? So in English (I'm still trying to sort all this new info out ) what's the short version of prints and picture info ?

I can't remember where I got the shirt (Chantilly show perhaps??), but these guys have them.

As best as I can tell (not being a lawyer), prints 'n' photos're required for every NFA purchase whether the Form's submitted by an individual or via a trust (....and, in the case of trusts, I'm not sure whether that means prints/pics from just the trustee or if it's all members of the trust?).

In a nutshell, the salient changes due to PAA's Executive Order were: 1) it eliminated the requirement to acquire "permission" from a Chief Law Enforcement Officer (CLEO). Now, the submitter only needs to notify the CLEO (i.e., send him a copy of your NFA Form); and 2) trust submissions now (i.e., after July) must be accompanied by prints 'n' photos.

But, as always when dealing with firearm/NFA law, it's best to ask ATF (who, in my experience, are usually helpful) or an attorney that specializes in this.

 

[minuit]

In the 90s, I shot a lot of USPSA. One guy I got to know wore a "Ban the ATF" hat.

New shooters would ask him if it was smart to wear such a hat. He would tell them, "It goes so well with this." Which sweeping back his outer garment to show his badge. An ATF badge.

 

[Wayne1one]

Why am I confused about this video? what do you make of it? It is my understanding that even if you have a "grandfathered" trust you will still be subject to the new rule post 7/13/2016. Listening to her video suggests something different., or is it just me......

 

[blksniper2000]

Why am I confused about this video? what do you make of it? It is my understanding that even if you have a "grandfathered" trust you will still be subject to the new rule post 7/13/2016. Listening to her video suggests something different., or is it just me......

I think she means getting your form 1's and 4's grandfathered when she says trust, the main point she is trying to make is make sure your forms are in pending status before 41p or you have to jump through the extra hoops for trusts.

 

[Wayne1one]

I think she means getting your form 1's and 4's grandfathered when she says trust, the main point she is trying to make is make sure your forms are in pending status before 41p or you have to jump through the extra hoops for trusts.

Yup, that's what she meant.... But bad choice of words, figures a Lawyer would only make it more confusing while clarifying things......lol.

Sent from my VS990 using Tapatalk

 

[fabsroman]

I think she means getting your form 1's and 4's grandfathered when she says trust, the main point she is trying to make is make sure your forms are in pending status before 41p or you have to jump through the extra hoops for trusts.

She seems pretty clear to me. Just because you create a trust prior to July 13, 2016 does not mean your Form 1 or Form 4 submitted after July 13, 2016 is not subject to Rule 41P. Essentially, all Form 1 or Form 4 submitted after July 13, 2016 are subject to Rule 41P, regardless of when the trust was created.

So, you have to create your trust before July 13, 2016; you have to submit your Form 1 or Form 4 before July 13, 2016; AND your Form 1 or Form 4 must go into pending status before July 13, 2016.

A little less than 3 1/2 months to go. However, if Donald gets elected he said he is going to do away with this rule immediately. How many people betting on 1) Donald getting elected and 2) him doing away with this rule immediately upon election.

 

[fred333]

How many people betting on 1) Donald getting elected and 2) him doing away with this rule immediately upon election.

Yes and no.

 

[fabsroman]

Yes and no.

It was an "and" question, not an "or" question.

Thing is, I almost agree with you. Think the election is going to be a crap shoot and if Hillary wins then the dealers are going to make more hay and the gun industry is going to be loving life. Although, it might be a short lived "loving life" with a lot of pain down the road.

Trump and Hillary. Hard to believe that is the best that America has to offer. Then again, we had 8 years of Obama. Good God.

I need to stay away from the internet.

 

[Hawkeye]

She seems pretty clear to me. Just because you create a trust prior to July 13, 2016 does not mean your Form 1 or Form 4 submitted after July 13, 2016 is not subject to Rule 41P. Essentially, all Form 1 or Form 4 submitted after July 13, 2016 are subject to Rule 41P, regardless of when the trust was created.

So, you have to create your trust before July 13, 2016; you have to submit your Form 1 or Form 4 before July 13, 2016;

Yup. Agreed, and it was pretty clear to me too. I think she was trying to address some people who thought that as long as you had a trust that pre-dated 41F you were exempt.

AND your Form 1 or Form 4 must go into pending status before July 13, 2016.

This is the first time that I've specifically heard that it has to be pending before 7/13, vs. submitted before 7/13. I would like to know where she got that information, because that's an important distinction.

A little less than 3 1/2 months to go. However, if Donald gets elected he said he is going to do away with this rule immediately. How many people betting on 1) Donald getting elected and 2) him doing away with this rule immediately upon election.

The man is a pathological liar and I don't put any stock in any of the words that come out of his mouth.

 

[minuit]

This is the first time that I've specifically heard that it has to be pending before 7/13, vs. submitted before 7/13. I would like to know where she got that information, because that's an important distinction.

I've seen the pending status distinction several other places but have not read through the entire 41f to find reference to it. My understanding is that this is correct though.

I'm going to try to pickup one or two more form 4s this week at a LGS as I'm afraid that a form 3 transfer to form 4 is going to take too long.

The man is a pathological liar and I don't put any stock in any of the words that come out of his mouth.

Things are bleak.

 

[protegeV]

This is the first time that I've specifically heard that it has to be pending before 7/13, vs. submitted before 7/13. I would like to know where she got that information, because that's an important distinction.

THIS!

There's no concrete way to know or control when your app will go pending. You could submit in May and they could potentially sit on it too long.

 

[vgplayer]

SilencerShop has posted this about getting in before the deadline. I'm a little confused because doesn't it have to be Form 3'd to dealer, approved, and then the Form 4 can be submitted. My last form 3 took close to a month.

http://www.silencershop.com/41f-guarantee

SILENCER SHOP 41F GUARANTEE:


We guarantee that your Powered By Silencer Shop Silencer Shop Form 4 using a Trust or a Corporation will be processed under current regulations, or we will give you $100!

Guidelines include:
•You must purchase an in-stock silencer between May 1 and July 6, 2016.
•All transfer information must be submitted to Silencer Shop by July 8, 2016—including requested corrections and/or additional information.

To reiterate: We guarantee that transfers meeting these requirements will be submitted under the currently existing rules, or we will give you $100

 

[protegeV]

SilencerShop has posted this about getting in before the deadline. I'm a little confused because doesn't it have to be Form 3'd to dealer, approved, and then the Form 4 can be submitted. My last form 3 took close to a month.

http://www.silencershop.com/41f-guarantee

I believe they have some kind of deal where they submit the form3 and form4 at the same time.

 

[Hawkeye]

I've seen the pending status distinction several other places but have not read through the entire 41f to find reference to it. My understanding is that this is correct though.

I've read the whole document a couple of times. The actual amended rule starts on page 238 and goes to the end of the document on page 248. Nowhere in there does it address this topic, so AFAIK the answer to this is NOT legally codified anywhere.

However.... a huge portion of the document is a Q&A which addresses concerns that were brought forward during the public comment time that they had. In that section they address this in a couple of places:

With regard to the comment regarding applications that have a "pending" status when the rule is implemented, all applications postmarked prior to the effective date of the rule will be processed under the current regulations. The same is the case for any applications that have a pending status at the time the rule is implemented.

So there it says that anything that is EITHER pending or postmarked prior to July 13th will be grandfathered.

Applications postmarked prior to the implementation of the final rule will be processed under the current regulations. Only those applications postmarked on or after the implementation of the final rule will be subject to the new regulations.

This statement is in agreement with the above - anything postmarked prior to July 13 will be grandfathered.

The final rule is not retroactive and therefore the final rule will not apply to applications that are in "pending" status, or to previously approved applications for existing legal entities and trusts holding NF A items.

But in this instance they only mention that things that are "pending" will be grandfathered.

Clear as mud, right? Just to be safe I would say that anything pending will definitely be grandfathered, and anything postmarked "likely" will.

I'm going to try to pickup one or two more form 4s this week at a LGS as I'm afraid that a form 3 transfer to form 4 is going to take too long.

Yeah, at this point a Form 3 is getting dicey. I need to get off my duff and get my rimfire can taken care of.

 

[ironpony]

Sorry if I missed it but what about adding people to your trust? Same timeline? If you add people does the atf need notification?
I have forgotten everything I learned in '13, damn 13'ers!