M-4: Is this rifle costing American Lives?

[erwos]

Everything I know about AR15s , I learned from a fanboy.

That post was full of epic win.

 

[SCARCQB]

Roger Canuck. WBAL and their own extensive experience base. I've got an idea. Why don't we have Canuck, 3rd Recon, and myself range safety the next MD Shooters Shoot and every time we see someone who demostrates that they don't know what they are doing with an AR or violates one of the basic tenets of safe firearms handling, not only do they get removed from the range, but they are banned from posting any "opinions" on this site until they unscrew themselves. I'm actually thinking of trying to get a Pat Rogers course set-up here just so I can watch the fireworks.

Norton, I am waiting to be chastized for being mean!

WOW! someone needs a hug

 

[shadow116]

AR Fanboys are nothing compared to the HK Fanboys. Now there are some real honest and well thought out opinions.

 

[SCARCQB]

Don't get me started about the HK fanboys. Participation in the federal witness protection program in required before you even start going there.

 

[Russ D]

WOW! someone needs a hug

I seriously hope these group shoots aren't about a few "experts" looking around for noobs to bust on all day.

 

[smokey]

I seriously hope these group shoots aren't about a few "experts" looking around for noobs to bust on all day.

typically they're about some actual experts like 3rd being generous enough to not only share his ammunition and firearms but also his experience in helping you become a better shot. military experience cock-swinging in the thread aside, you understand how much of quality individuals these guys are when you're face to face with them. kevp's just mean though and regularly hurts my feelings. my man-card's been revoked on numerous occasions because of the wimpering and tears brought on by his thunderous impact of actual knowledge on my still-forming opinions.

 

[SCARCQB]

typically they're about some actual experts like 3rd being generous enough to not only share his ammunition and firearms but also his experience in helping you become a better shot. military experience cock-swinging in the thread aside, you understand how much of quality individuals these guys are when you're face to face with them. kevp's just mean though and regularly hurts my feelings. my man-card's been revoked on numerous occasions because of the wimpering and tears brought on by his thunderous impact of actual knowledge on my still-forming opinions.

I have met 3rdrecon and he's an A1 awesome, softspoken all american good guy. I cant say the same for the rest.

But we are not in boot camp anymore. Nor are we paid by uncle sam to be insulted. There are better ways in teaching adults than just embarrassing them to death.I know, I teach adults for a living. This is why we fail , In war, it is the same thing. No one thinks that winning hearts and minds is as important anymore.

Those experts have the training to kill the enemy, My former job in the Military was to make allies out of former enemies. Only if they don't convert to our side that we kill em. lol.'

 

[Russ D]

typically they're about some actual experts like 3rd being generous enough to not only share his ammunition and firearms but also his experience in helping you become a better shot. military experience cock-swinging in the thread aside, you understand how much of quality individuals these guys are when you're face to face with them. kevp's just mean though and regularly hurts my feelings. my man-card's been revoked on numerous occasions because of the wimpering and tears brought on by his thunderous impact of actual knowledge on my still-forming opinions.

Sounds good. I'm always looking to learn something new from a good source. Not interested in the other scenerio one bit.

 

[X-Factor]

So, SCARCQB, what do YOU suggest? You seem intent on bashing all those that own anything that is "beneath" you, so why not bring some USEFUL information to the table? There was alot of truth in your long post and in others you've written, but it's starting to come across as just elitism.

Some of us DO have alot of experience with ARs and their pros and cons and are NOT "fanboys" by your definition. Find me another rifle that is as as easy to find/build/modify, has such a HUGE array of cartridge options (22LR up to 50 Beowulf and just about everything in between), and is easy for a beginner to learn on? Go on.

I do not have an AR, though I will be buying one at some point. Why? Because I DO know its pros and cons, I have more than a few years of experience with them, I can shoot the shit out of them with confidence, and it's operation and function I know better than my wife. Why learn another platform when an existing one can reliably serve my purpose that I DO know?

What do YOU own? Don't even get me started on your snarky anti-HK comment. HK vs Glock is like Ford vs Chevy in terms of polarity. I recognize that Glock is an excellent platform and is quite reliable. They are also cheap and easy to modify. They just don't feel right in my hands. I bought an HK. Equally (if not more so) reliable. Modification potential isn't the be all end all, and I bought my HK used so the price differencial disappeared too.

Shoot what you like, shoot what you love, but dammit just keep shooting.

 

[3rdRcn]

Thanks for the kind words smokey and SCAR, some of the folks here have never met me and don't know what I am all about, so I ignore them. I am not an elitist in any sense of the word. I help any person who asks and will let folks shoot all my ammo and I will never fire a shot, I actually went through over 3000 rounds one shoot and I never shot any of my guns. If I have something you want to shoot I will not only provide the firearm but I'll give you the ammo to use with it. I'm all about treating people the way I want to be treated, period. Don't judge me or form an opinion of me until you know me, if after you know me you don't like me then I'm ok with that cause the feeling will probably be mutual. I am not a bullshitter or politician, I tell it like I see it and if you can't deal with it then I am sorry but I ain't changin.

Kevp is not an elitist either and is a very nice guy who happens to be a very good friend of mine. My knowledge of the AR platform is non existent compared to his and I listen when he talks, I don't agree with him every time but 99.9% of the time he is correct in what he says. He will not talk to exercise his lips like some of the folks on this forum do on a regular basis. Kev is very forceful in the way he presents things, that's Kev and he doesn't mean anything by it. He is a "A" personality in every sense of the word and it would do most of you well to pay attention to what he says, you might actually learn something about what you are saying. I will not get into details because Kev is a very humble guy but I will tell you he is not a wannabe, he is a highly decorated war hero and was a real "operator", not somebody who thinks they are or is trying to be.

 

[SCARCQB]

Shoot what you like, shoot what you love, but dammit just keep shooting.[/QUOTE)

First of all. I agree with everything that you have stated. I am just unsure about your point of contention.

Also, You are missing the point. First of all, I did not write that post " What I know about Ar15s i learned from a fanboy".I wish I did, but it was written by a guy constantly being picked on at another site. I simply just re-posted it because it was a good write-up.

I'm not even going to discuss what I own.I shoot what I want and what I can afford. But I too have experience in AR 15/M16 platform, in fact I own a number of AR15 and M16s. I have been using the AR since 1982. I have used it in the course of performing my duty and it has saved my behind in more instances than I can remember to count. Even if apparently, I was lubricating it incorrectly. In fact, I am an admitted AR fanboy.
After all the bad blood here, I am reluctant to post. Since the First Gulf war( been there, done that, but I was in the USAF), There are many other people here that have some kind of military experience.That means , exposure to the M16 in its various forms. AR experienced folks,That is no longer a small group. Some think that information on AR15s is scarce, all that stuff is available by open source research. The M16 has also been employed by many forces around the world for more than 40 years.I for for instance had my first exposure to it while being a member of another country's military. My faith in the M16 was reinforced when I enlisted in the US ARMY back in 2000 /OCS 2002.This has been my service weapon in many hostile places. ( Bosnia,Basilan island and the Sandbox).I am also a Medic, I design , test, integrate Medical equipment as an engineer in my Civilian career.I also get paid to analyze flaws. I have seen the effectiveness of the m16 in terms of tissue damage.

If people ask stupid questions or post bad comments, that is all good too. As long as it is not force fed into us. I had presented my personal choice as a substitute for the AR and that was summarily and rudely dispensed as a buttload of crap. I was also subjected to a pecker check as to my military credentials. that is insulting and just plain wrong, People should be able to have a discussion without getting personal.

What can I bring to the table? Unless you ask me a specific question. I will no longer volunteer information. I hate to be branded as an elitist , a poser or a wannabee. Its not worth the trouble.If you didn't get the point about my HK fanboy comment, then that shows that you are one of those lucky ones that HK didnt screw with bad support or maybe you havent done business with them for a long time yet as to find out what I really mean.

The ability to disagree is a right that free people have. there is nothing wrong with it. It may tick some people off, but thats life, deal with it.

 

[Russ D]

Thanks for the kind words smokey and SCAR, some of the folks here have never met me and don't know what I am all about, so I ignore them. I am not an elitist in any sense of the word. I help any person who asks and will let folks shoot all my ammo and I will never fire a shot, I actually went through over 3000 rounds one shoot and I never shot any of my guns. If I have something you want to shoot I will not only provide the firearm but I'll give you the ammo to use with it. I'm all about treating people the way I want to be treated, period. Don't judge me or form an opinion of me until you know me, if after you know me you don't like me then I'm ok with that cause the feeling will probably be mutual. I am not a bullshitter or politician, I tell it like I see it and if you can't deal with it then I am sorry but I ain't changin.

Kevp is not an elitist either and is a very nice guy who happens to be a very good friend of mine. My knowledge of the AR platform is non existent compared to his and I listen when he talks, I don't agree with him every time but 99.9% of the time he is correct in what he says. He will not talk to exercise his lips like some of the folks on this forum do on a regular basis. Kev is very forceful in the way he presents things, that's Kev and he doesn't mean anything by it. He is a "A" personality in every sense of the word and it would do most of you well to pay attention to what he says, you might actually learn something about what you are saying. I will not get into details because Kev is a very humble guy but I will tell you he is not a wannabe, he is a highly decorated war hero and was a real "operator", not somebody who thinks they are or is trying to be.

That's cool man, I think we did meet at Dan's once. I'm pretty much the same way with my weapons. You can ask any of the guys who come to the Carroll County shoots how much actual shooting I do. Sometimes though the guys who know spend way too much time trying to make the guys they feel are "wannabees" feel lesser than them. The Ar15 is a pretty basic peice of machinery as far as I'm concerned and alot of the testing data is out there and available for reading if you know where to look. Just because you didn't serve in combat or spend half your life actually doing the testing doesn't mean you can't get the data and apply it correctly. Now using said weapon correctly absolutely takes proper training and experience. There's nothing wrong with offering a differing opinion or explaning why someone is incorrect if you disagree with a post, but if everyone was afraid of being called out as a "wannabe" simply because they offered "substandard advice" there wouldn't be alo0t of posting going on. Sometimes it's just having the discussion that brings out the really knowledgable to actually post something. BTW ALucard is awesome. The amount of time he takes to make clear, concise posts with lots of good info makes me everytime he posts.

 

[2SAM22]

I can vouch for 3rd and Canuck. Both are good guys.

I will also say that it is great to be not involved in a thread (for once) that is circling the drain.

 

[joppaj]

I will also say that it is great to be not involved in a thread (for once) that is circling the drain.

Damn cops...

 

[3rdRcn]

Thanks Vince!

Russ, I will say that I absolutely agree with you but sometimes folks that don't know jack shouldn't post like they know what they are talking about, I think that is what happened here. I love a difference of opinion, that's what makes the world go round. I don't like people talking about something that they know absolutely nothing about and trying to sound like an authority. I am in know way calling you or anybody in particular out, those who are doing it know who they are.

 

[3rdRcn]

Damn cops...

You mean jack booted thugs.

 

[Kevp]

I am speaking from personal experience and have taken a separate approach in terms of lubricating weapons. I am an engineer by training and served in the US Army as an Infantry officer.

No one thinks that winning hearts and minds is as important anymore.
Those experts have the training to kill the enemy, My former job in the Military was to make allies out of former enemies. Only if they don't convert to our side that we kill em. lol.'

Since the First Gulf war( been there, done that, but I was in the USAF)

My faith in the M16 was reinforced when I enlisted in the US ARMY back in 2000 /OCS 2002.This has been my service weapon in many hostile places. ( Bosnia,Basilan island and the Sandbox).I am also a Medic,

I was also subjected to a pecker check as to my military credentials. that is insulting and just plain wrong

I want to get something straight right now- my asking directly about SCAR CQB's military experience was not a "peckercheck". I am more than secure with what I have done in and out of the military and don't feel the need to expound on that unless necessary.

The reason I inquired is because I was beginning to get confused as to just what he has been and done in the military. All of the above are quotes from SCAR CQB in various threads over the past week. The first one states that he was an Infantry officer in the US Army. That is the one that resonated with me since I was one. Curiously, when I asked where he served, he stated the MDARNG MI Battalion. Now I know weird things happen, but normally Infantry officers are assigned to Infantry units, not MI units unless they are in a Long Range Surveillance Detachment (LRSD). Since SCAR attended OCS in 2002, he would have had to be an XO or CO CDR in that unit and I'm sure he would have mentioned it. What really got me going was his questioning of when Larry Vickers had been to the Sandbox. Okay, SCAR was in the "USAF during the first Gulf War"..."then enlisted US Army 2000/OCS 2002"...."been my service weapon in many hostile places"...."winning hearts and minds"...."making allies out of former enemies".....pardon me for scratching my head. "Served in the US Army" is past tense. So you enlisted in 2000 and did OCS in 2002 and if you were an Infantry officer, you had to go to IOBC (think it was still called that back then), then Ranger School (maybe not), and now you are out. So how many hostile places could you have gone in the MDARNG in say 5 years?

Lastly, I appreciate 3rd Rcn's kind words, but I am not a war hero and I do not consider myself to be some high speed operator. I do, however, know a thing or two. The problem around here is that people don't understand where I am coming from and there are too many disciples of ARFCOM as indicated by language like "epic.....". I usually chime in when someone makes a statement I know to be inaccurate.

FYI SCAR- I was not badmouthing your choice in guns, but the way you were comparing and portraying them.....and you started with the Infantry officer comment, not me. If you knew me, you would also know I am not an AR Fanboy. I try to educate people on reality, not urban legend or bad habits developed from the aforementioned. If you saw some of my work-related writings, you'd also know that I've been a proponent of replacing the M16/M4 family if there is something better out there. That takes test which I am also a proponent of. You have said things like I need a hug because of what I posted earlier after working a MD Shooters range. I posted that for the same reason I've been posting this stuff. I'm seeing the same guys that purport to be experts on this board with their postings show up on a range and exhibit absolutely zero skills, especially safety, with the weapons they show so much Internet prowess with. Please accept my deepest and sincerest apologies if I have insulted you by being confused by your posts.

 

[SCARCQB]

RESPONSE DELETED

 

[3rdRcn]

Lastly, I appreciate 3rd Rcn's kind words, but I am not a war hero and I do not consider myself to be some high speed operator. I do, however, know a thing or two....I usually chime in when someone makes a statement I know to be inaccurate.

Don't make me chime in...with your inaccurate statements.

Say what ya want but I made no inaccurate statements in my posts. I love it when you get all forceful with me...I get all tingly and stuff.

Now let's all lighten the F up and get on with talkin about stuff that's worth readin, which most of this thread has been.

 

[Rattlesnake46319]

Don't make me chime in...with your inaccurate statements.

Say what ya want but I made no inaccurate statements in my posts. I love it when you get all forceful with me...I get all tingly and stuff.

Now let's all lighten the F up and get on with talkin about stuff that's worth readin, which most of this thread has been.

I've heard that about you jarheads. Put a gimp mask on ya, give ya a few orders, and y'all melt.