SAF files for cert in Drake (NJ may-issue)

[kcbrown]

The game is just starting for NJ.. A full nation wide campaign depicting NJ as the hell hole that it is to discourage tourism is a good start.


Think of a vacation style add culminating a rape or murder -- then just as the anti are about to screen about disinformation we cut to the victim or victims family telling the real story in there own words -- tag line " stay the >bleep> out of NJ -- you have been warned.


Same for other gun free zones -- Bloomberg can do it so can we-- and we don''t need to intent stuff that does not happen...

We hit them in the wallet .. hard.

No mainstream media outlet worth speaking of would carry any such ad.

Good luck with that approach when the enemy controls the keys to the primary means of information dissemination.

I'm not saying it shouldn't be tried, just that you should expect it to fail.

 

[press1280]

Try not to puke when reading this.

The first few pages are Almeida's response, written to his attorney (which the attorney will file with the court, presumably).

More important are the pages that come after, and is how the county prosecutor twists and bends the argument around to recommend denial.

Almeida truly does fear for his life. There is NO reason he should be denied. In Maryland he would probably have gotten a (restricted) permit. In NJ if he had a SORA card and worked for a security company he would have gotten a permit. If he had political connections, he would have gotten a permit.

But if he has threats to his life? No permit for you! Just give up your livelihood and go do something else, or go on welfare or something. Just don't ask for a permit to carry a handgun.

NJ may very well start telling people officially if they don't like it, move to another state.

I'm suprised the state didn't say one of his options was to hire (retired/off duty LEO) security. The CCW in NJ is little more than a cash cow payoff to the police (and a few VERY select individuals). I get so mad when I see this stuff that I'd like the whole thing blown up to where retired LEO's exemptions are taken away and off duty cops are barred from armed private security. Let's see if they're so complicit with NJ's gun laws if that happens.

 

[ShallNotInfringe]

No mainstream media outlet worth speaking of would carry any such ad.

Good luck with that approach when the enemy controls the keys to the primary means of information dissemination.

I'm not saying it shouldn't be tried, just that you should expect it to fail.

Maybe something a little less dramatic yet packed with facts might work though. Imagine a grassroots funded "public service announcement" about carry laws including the process, where one is unobtainium contrasted with crime stats. If done right, it could be a real eye opener to the public. Maybe even for a little icing on the cake a few seconds of clips showing the idiotic arguments the left uses to prevent their "servants" from exercising their 2nd amendment rights. I have one in mind that was uttered by one of our own MD politicians about letting them have their guns after they have proven they are worthy.

 

[Brooklyn]

No mainstream media outlet worth speaking of would carry any such ad.

Good luck with that approach when the enemy controls the keys to the primary means of information dissemination.

I'm not saying it shouldn't be tried, just that you should expect it to fail.

Do you have any idea what would happen if an FFC lic holder refused an add with political content during an election cycle? I am prepared to hope that they do turn us down-- we get free buzz, the censorship angle will raise our credibility, and the 1 litigation will force the media to defend their fcc lic in court. If we do not see the value of this eve if we lose then I think our side should just give up.

Nor are we required to limit ourselves to such 'mainstream' outlets. The internet will allow the content to be seen, and the very fact that an add were suppressed will help drive eyeballs to it.

Then there is direct mail. If I know op force more than half of our publicity will come from them setting their hair on fire about it. They will make the add seem like the worst thing since mien kampf --and will in fact make our adds, much more moderate then they are.

And they will be moderate -- if you think I am going to show violence you do not know me nor understand the ways of modern propaganda. If we do this they will have no choice but to carry it-- hell it will be show for free on the news....


This is how it works-- we are not even in the game yet.

So... do we get in the game-- or do we keep doing OC events until we have real OR disaster on our hands.. like a real Nut coming out of the woodwork > -- we have not seen the worst -- we could get a PTSD case... a real PTSD case ( they are rare but they do exist ).


Please le...ts fight were the odds are better than 50 50 than we can reach the moderates ..

 

[Brooklyn]

Maybe something a little less dramatic yet packed with facts might work though. Imagine a grassroots funded "public service announcement" about carry laws including the process, where one is unobtainium contrasted with crime stats. If done right, it could be a real eye opener to the public. Maybe even for a little icing on the cake a few seconds of clips showing the idiotic arguments the left uses to prevent their "servants" from exercising their 2nd amendment rights. I have one in mind that was uttered by one of our own MD politicians about letting them have their guns after they have proven they are worthy.

The average voter responds to facts to the same degree as the family pet. Only an emotional appeal, backed by fact can work. The statistics need to come forward and speak. This is what I am proposing. Crime victims telling their stories. If we do it right our critics will be seen as trying to censor victims of crime. The goal is not education the goal is to get folks to change their behavior Gp to pA not NJ. Stay out of NYC. Only go to Baltimore with a current will, paid up life insurance and make sure you tell your family when you will back so they can get help if you are overdue

This is what getting tough looks like -- this is what lots of folks say they want-- attacking folks income is definitely not playing nice -- but it legal - think of this like continuum of force. I see this as the next step.

 

[ryan_j]

The average vote responds to facts to the same degree as the family pet. Only an emotional appeal, backed by fact can work. The statistics need to come forward and speak. This is what I am proposing. Crime victims telling their stories. If we do it right our critics will be seen as trying to censor victims of crime. The goal is not education the goal is to get folks to change their behavior Gp to pA not NJ. Stay out of NYC. Only go to Baltimore with a current will, paid up life insurance and make sure you tell your family when you will back so they can get help if you are overdue

This is what getting tough looks like -- this is what lots of folks say they want-- attacking folks income is definitely not playing nice -- but it legal - think of this like continuum of force. I see this as the next step.

This is 100% true. This is also how Jeff Muller got his permit.

Jeff Muller, as you may recall was the lead plaintiff in Drake (it was originally called Muller v Maenza). He was kidnapped and beaten twice under a case of mistaken identity. NJ also denied his carry permit saying that he didn't have justifiable need.

It is only after the Star-Ledger wrote an editorial saying "just give the man his gun" and the state realized that him suing the state would be really, really bad (SCOTUS would have probably granted cert if he had stayed on) they reassigned it to another judge and they granted the permit.

One of the major criticism I've had of 2A groups here was not seizing on things like the short hills carjacking incident or other things. We have been told we need to play nice. The other side isn't playing nice though. I can understand respecting those who died, but don't we want to make the situation better?

 

[Brooklyn]

This is 100% true. This is also how Jeff Muller got his permit.

Jeff Muller, as you may recall was the lead plaintiff in Drake (it was originally called Muller v Maenza). He was kidnapped and beaten twice under a case of mistaken identity. NJ also denied his carry permit saying that he didn't have justifiable need.

It is only after the Star-Ledger wrote an editorial saying "just give the man his gun" and the state realized that him suing the state would be really, really bad (SCOTUS would have probably granted cert if he had stayed on) they reassigned it to another judge and they granted the permit.

One of the major criticism I've had of 2A groups here was not seizing on things like the short hills carjacking incident or other things. We have been told we need to play nice. The other side isn't playing nice though. I can understand respecting those who died, but don't we want to make the situation better?

We need the victims to step forward... . We can not force them, and we can not exploit them.. but as more folks become victims this will be possible... we should start preparing so we are ready.

 

[Gryphon]

This is 100% true. This is also how Jeff Muller got his permit.

Jeff Muller, as you may recall was the lead plaintiff in Drake (it was originally called Muller v Maenza). He was kidnapped and beaten twice under a case of mistaken identity. NJ also denied his carry permit saying that he didn't have justifiable need.

It is only after the Star-Ledger wrote an editorial saying "just give the man his gun" and the state realized that him suing the state would be really, really bad (SCOTUS would have probably granted cert if he had stayed on) they reassigned it to another judge and they granted the permit.

One of the major criticism I've had of 2A groups here was not seizing on things like the short hills carjacking incident or other things. We have been told we need to play nice. The other side isn't playing nice though. I can understand respecting those who died, but don't we want to make the situation better?

I don't agree with open LG carry in restaurants to stir the pot, but I agree with this. We need to promote every instance where a law abiding citizen and his or her family wasn't protected by the police and wasn't armed because the state prohibited it, along with instances where armed citizens were able to protect themselves. Getting people to understand they are totally exposed and at the mercy of the government in concert with the criminals will eventually have an impact. It has happened elsewhere - MD is just behind the curve.

 

[ShallNotInfringe]

I don't agree with open LG carry in restaurants to stir the pot, but I agree with this. We need to promote every instance where a law abiding citizen and his or her family wasn't protected by the police and wasn't armed because the state prohibited it, along with instances where armed citizens were able to protect themselves. Getting people to understand they are totally exposed and at the mercy of the government in concert with the criminals will eventually have an impact. It has happened elsewhere - MD is just behind the curve.

My point was that if you highlight actual information (and there is plenty of damning facts) rather than saying things like "don't come to maryland cause you'll be raped" have a better chance of hitting the airwaves given the political climate is skewed towards the grabbers. The facts backed up by citations can't be denied.

 

[Brooklyn]

My point was that if you highlight actual information (and there is plenty of damning facts) rather than saying things like "don't come to maryland cause you'll be raped" have a better chance of hitting the airwaves given the political climate is skewed towards the grabbers. The facts backed up by citations can't be denied.

I think my point is being missed.. facts can and will be denied. Most folks would sooner die than think... in fact they do. -- Bertrand Russell.

We must make them feel. The words " dont come here you will be raped.. must never be said.. they must be felt. The viewer must think this at a visceral level.. below the consciousness level..

Fail to do this and we loose..

The facts are our immunity from charges of fear mongering.. but I promise facts will not, and never have, moved the public mind.

We need to understand and accept that we really are different than most folks.... scientist engineers programmer Dr. EMT s police poikoys fire fighters... all disproportionately represent on this board... and all must control their emotional response and act on fact and reason.. in the case of first responders under exterme conditions..

What guides our choices is not what guides the masses. The good news is that we can use our analiical minds to figure out what dies and use that knowledge to our advantage..


Know our enemy. Know our selves and know the battlefeild... the minds of masses are ours to win..

Let's win.

 

[ShallNotInfringe]

Guess since I am one of those rare 90% left brained females...

I hear you, just trying to point out that if the previewers of the ad experience the intended result (emotionally), it will be rejected for a minor detail to prevent the message from being seen/heard.

Remember the Daniel Defense ad and the NFL? It wasn't the AR on their logo. That's what they said, but it was what the rest of the ad said in a clear message (a man/former soldier -gasp!!!- trying to protect his family) that prevented it from being played nationally.

About 4 months ago, I reached out to a few local television and radio advertising departments to discuss the possibility of presenting information regarding what has been observed and wanted to present clips from hearings and bill contents... Only one called me back - after 2 weeks - said they would send information and pricing, not a word since.

 

[Brooklyn]

Guess since I am one of those rare 90% left brained females...

I hear you, just trying to point out that if the previewers of the ad experience the intended result (emotionally), it will be rejected for a minor detail to prevent the message from being seen/heard.

Remember the Daniel Defense ad and the NFL? It wasn't the AR on their logo. That's what they said, but it was what the rest of the ad said in a clear message (a man/former soldier -gasp!!!- trying to protect his family) that prevented it from being played nationally.

About 4 months ago, I reached out to a few local television and radio advertising departments to discuss the possibility of presenting information regarding what has been observed and wanted to present clips from hearings and bill contents... Only one called me back - after 2 weeks - said they would send information and pricing, not a word since.

Rare like a gem. Sni. Truly.

Comercial speech is one thing. Political speech quite another.. esp during an election cycle.. the key is to set up PACs. And sue if need be... they put their FCC license at risk... we can even force them yo lose thier Lic. Any station that aired bloombergs add is in for a very hard time if they deny ours...

And if the net effect is they deny bloomberg as well.. that s a win of sorts as well

 

[kcbrown]

Do you have any idea what would happen if an FFC lic holder refused an add with political content during an election cycle?

With Obama controlling the executive branch? Not a damned thing, that's what.

I am prepared to hope that they do turn us down-- we get free buzz, the censorship angle will raise our credibility, and the 1 litigation will force the media to defend their fcc lic in court. If we do not see the value of this eve if we lose then I think our side should just give up.

And the free buzz comes from ... where? Other mainstream media outlets who also wish to avoid playing the same sort of ads? Yeah, right.

Nor are we required to limit ourselves to such 'mainstream' outlets. The internet will allow the content to be seen, and the very fact that an add were suppressed will help drive eyeballs to it.

That helps quite a lot, but it's not enough. Not yet. The mainstream media still remains the primary source of "information" that people use. It'll take another generation or two for that to change enough to turn the tide. By then, it'll be too late.

Then there is direct mail. If I know op force more than half of our publicity will come from them setting their hair on fire about it. They will make the add seem like the worst thing since mien kampf --and will in fact make our adds, much more moderate then they are.

Tell me something: when you receive direct mail from someone you don't recognize, or from someone you recognize as not being on your "interest list", what do you do with it? I can tell you what most people do: they toss the mail immediately without looking at it further.

There is so much junk mail in today's average mailbox that direct mail simply isn't sufficiently effective for the kind of change we're attempting to foster.


I completely agree that we have to reach the moderates and convince them to actually take a stand on the issue in order to win this. But I see no way to effectively accomplish that yet. Maybe it's because I "lack imagination" or something to that effect, but if it were that easy, the "moderates" would be on the side of whichever organizations had the best grassroots efforts, and we would already have won.

 

[ryan_j]

I wrote a letter to the editor in my local paper.

http://www.njherald.com/story/25745613/2014/06/10/those-with-real-needs-denied-gun-permits

Editor:

A few months ago, the Herald covered a story of I. Albert Almeida, who had applied for a permit to carry a handgun. Mr. Almeida was denied by his police department, despite having verified threats against his life from former gang members in Newark in the course of normal duties in connection with his property management business. In the appeal to the Superior Court, the (now outgoing) county prosecutor stated that Mr. Almeida could simply choose another line of work.

His case is hardly the first of its kind. Others have encountered similar danger but have been routinely denied permits by the state courts, on the basis of not having “justifiable need” and told that they could either hire expensive armed security or choose another line of work. Some of these are private security guards or more recently, retired arson investigators. The courts have also recently turned down similar cases from John Drake who carries cash to service ATMs, and most recently, Richard Pantano who carries cash for his landscaping business. Both of these cases were turned down by the U.S. Supreme Court and the New Jersey Supreme Court, respectively.

One therefore has to wonder, if being threatened by known criminals and carrying large amounts of cash is not justifiable need to carry a handgun in New Jersey, then what is? New Jersey citizens need to wake up and realize that New Jersey’s justifiable need standard for carry permits is only there to ensure that everyone is denied except well-connected people.

 

[Kharn]

So can Pantano appeal the dismissal of his case to the SCOTUS?

 

[press1280]

So can Pantano appeal the dismissal of his case to the SCOTUS?

Yep. Or more accurately he'll be appealing the ruling of the NJ appeals court, which interestingly held "only in the home". Lower court opinion is here: http://law.justia.com/cases/new-jersey/appellate-division-published/2013/a1682-11.html
There's a fairly clear split here with Moore as far as reasoning goes, and Nappen said he'll appeal. His chances probably are not that good, I doubt the SCOTUS is too interested in a case where the State Supreme court passed.

 

[Kharn]

I'm thinking one of the big reasons that Drake was denied cert was because the AG suggested SCOTUS pass on Drake so NJSC could handle it in-house with Pantano.

 

[ryan_j]

I'm thinking one of the big reasons that Drake was denied cert was because the AG suggested SCOTUS pass on Drake so NJSC could handle it in-house with Pantano.

That was Scott bach's theory about it as well.

 

[Brooklyn]

With Obama controlling the executive branch? Not a damned thing, that's what.


Not up to them - its a court thing

And the free buzz comes from ... where? Other mainstream media outlets who also wish to avoid playing the same sort of ads? Yeah, right.

Its worked before


Wiily horton add

That helps quite a lot, but it's not enough. Not yet. The mainstream media still remains the primary source of "information" that people use. It'll take another generation or two for that to change enough to turn the tide. By then, it'll be too late.

Sorry no the numbers are very clear on this -- the problem is most folks assume all media lies --- whereas before they assumed all media was truth -- that a win


Tell me something: when you receive direct mail from someone you don't recognize, or from someone you recognize as not being on your "interest list", what do you do with it? I can tell you what most people do: they toss the mail immediately without looking at it further.

Then you must be in the wrong business Direct mail is still around even if it does no good -- think how much you could make selling something that does not work .

There is so much junk mail in today's average mailbox that direct mail simply isn't sufficiently effective for the kind of change we're attempting to foster.
Only you are after a revolution -- I want a %1 shift in opinion in one year -- set reasonable goals -or give up

I completely agree that we have to reach the moderates and convince them to actually take a stand on the issue in order to win this. But I see no way to effectively accomplish that yet. Maybe it's because I "lack imagination" or something to that effect, but if it were that easy, the "moderates" would be on the side of whichever organizations had the best grassroots efforts, and we would already have won.

Really?.. have you seen the heavy handed a-holes doing our grass roots work ? I would call the cops myself and I agree with them. ---and you are very imaginative -- you can kill any idea in seconds-- its a gift.. But you don't win by doing the perfect -- you win by doing something and then adapting as you go.. Act or be acted upon. ---

I intend to act .


--- US Grant


Ps if you intend to reply pull it to another thread ok... lets try to help folks ignore us "

 

[press1280]

I'm thinking one of the big reasons that Drake was denied cert was because the AG suggested SCOTUS pass on Drake so NJSC could handle it in-house with Pantano.

There's no mention of Pantano in the AG's reply, unless I missed it. I don't know if it was mentioned by Gura in passing, and SCOTUS dug deeper and saw that it was waiting to be heard by the NJSC.