What makes an HBAR an HBAR?

[Brooklyn]

And if he had sold it on gunbroker.com and had his ffl ship it to another ffl in another state, how would he let MSP know he had sold it? Registration is a complete pile of BS because they have no way of telling whether you sold the firearm out of state or not.

Yes it is.. and it should not be the law. And all such records should be imeachable in court. In this case and in the gun broker case a copy of the 4473 sent to the firearms Lic division would seem to work. It can save hassle later....
Or walk In to the msp and ask a sworn officer to sign off on receipt.. or have council do it..

They set the rules now we must play their game..

 

[Pinecone]

Some dealers will sell anything with a heavy barrel as a unregulated gun and others will make you do paperwork on every AR because they feel they are covering their butts.

The law is poorly written. Because of how the Colt H-BAR is listed as the exception, there is much speculation of where the rubber meets the road on what is and is not considered to be an unregulated H-BAR.

And the MSP will not "officially" clear up the confusion. You can contact the MSP (I did on this very issue) and ask how the law/exception works as far as what rifles you can buy over the counter without paperwork.

When I contacted the MSP and asked, they told me if the dealer considers the given rifle as an H-BAR, and it does not matter what make the rifle is, and it does not matter if H-BAR is stamped on the barrel or not, as long as the dealer has the professional opinion the given rifle is an H-BAR AR, it is OK with them if the dealer sells the rifle over the counter without paperwork.

However when the local dealers ask the MSP to give them something in writing that spells this out in any detail, the MSP will not provide it. I'm sure the reason for this is if something were to happen the MSP does not want to be in a court of law defending them selves giving permission in writing. We all know how the anti's are and I would bet money that when they wrote this law and came up with this list of now regulated AR's, their intention was not to let the sale of any and all H-BAR's over the counter.

This is not a proven fact and just my personnel opinion, but I think the law is very poorly written and I think the MSP see that as well. And it does not make any more sense to the MSP then it does to any of us on why any one AR with a heavy barrel should be treated any differently then any other AR with a heavy barrel.

So reading between the lines, "unofficial" the MSP will tell you or any dealer that asks it is OK with them to sell any H-BAR over the counter, but will not give anyone this in writing.

When they just tell whoever it is OK to sell anything that is classified as an H-BAR over the counter, and if their is nothing in writing, they can get that old selective memory and say that you/they must have misunderstood what they were saying.

But at the end of the day, (and no matter if I'm 100% wrong with my opinion I stated above or not), some dealers are VERY uptight about selling any AR-15 without paperwork, H-BAR or not, and other dealers are not uptight at all and will sell anything with a heavy barrel over the counter without paperwork.

Some dealers want to be sheep and have the MSP tell them how to walk and talk and they will walk in lock step feeling this will keep them out of trouble without any risk. Other dealers are more free thinkers and do not require anything in writing and are very OK with the verbal from the MSP on this H-BAR issue.

What I do and suggest to others, if you find the dealer that is a free thinker, reward them by sending them all of your business.

But for all of us what is more important at this time is how H-BAR's will be treated after 10/1/2013.

Waht speculation? The only speculation is with those who will not call MSP or will not listen to what they are told.

If the dealer feels it is an HBAR, then MSP is fine with that. NO SPECULATION.

MSP is actually reading the ENTIRE section, not just the one line.

 

[dblas]

I have not been reading these threads but man, you have done a 180 since I last read your postings! I am glad to see you are no still not saying it must be a Colt model XXX...

He and I had a long drawn out discussion in this very thread.

It was fun...

 

[runswscissors]

Ha - timely topic. Thanks!

 

[Merlin]

I have not been reading these threads but man, you have done a 180 since I last read your postings! I am glad to see you are no still not saying it must be a Colt model XXX...

Well your right and I did do the 180. But that's because I contacted the MSP and asked the horses mouth and that is what they told me. However, for the MANY of dealers that do not want to consider any and all AR that happens to have a heavy barrel as an over the counter gun, who can blame them. The MSP will tell you "sure, go ahead sell it over the counter if it has an H-BAR". But they will not put it in writing that it's OK to sell any and all AR's with H-BAR's over the counter. And because they will not provide this concrete paperwork is the very reason there is two camps of what people think is OK to do.

So one would have to ask why that is?

And we know the answer to that. All will be cool with the MSP AS LONG AS NOTHING BECOMES AN ISSUE! If it does they will need to be able to point the finger at the dealer that sold a none Colt H-BAR over the counter without paperwork to the next mass killer. The MSP would not want paperwork out there any dealer could bring with them to court that shows it was OK with the MSP.

 

[Brooklyn]

Well your right and I did do the 180. But that's because I contacted the MSP and asked the horses mouth and that is what they told me. However, for the MANY of dealers that do not want to consider any and all AR that happens to have a heavy barrel as an over the counter gun, who can blame them. The MSP will tell you "sure, go ahead sell it over the counter if it has an H-BAR". But they will not put it in writing that it's OK to sell any and all AR's with H-BAR's over the counter. And because they will not provide this concrete paperwork is the very reason there is two camps of what people think is OK to do.

So one would have to ask why that is?

And we know the answer to that. All will be cool with the MSP AS LONG AS NOTHING BECOMES AN ISSUE! If it does they will need to be able to point the finger at the dealer that sold a none Colt H-BAR over the counter without paperwork to the next mass killer. The MSP would not want paperwork out there any dealer could bring with them to court that shows it was OK with the MSP.

And not disapproved is not approved..
Dealers can do as they please post 1 Oct it will matter a lot more. Many dealers will simply stop doing. Business at all. Many will move. others will become hunting gun stores..

Only one thing matters. Are you willing to by an hbar post 1 Oct?

You will find dealers willing to do it. Not all will. Not all will survive either...

 

[iH8DemLibz]

HBAR revival time. God bless the AR15 in all its shapes, forms, and glory.

Here we go.

WHAT IS AN HBAR??? And no guessing.

A: Is it weight???

B: Is it design???

C: Is it diameter under the handguard???

D: Is it C plus diameter in front of the gas block???

E: Can an HBAR be milled down to lighten it???

F: Can an HBAR be turned down to lighten it???

G: Can an HBAR be fluted to lighten it???

H: What, past 16 inches, is the legal length of an HBAR barrel???

I: Can an HBAR be heavy (.980 diameter) under the handguard and pencil (.550) ,in front of the gas block???

J: Is it a bull barrel???

Inquiring minds want to know.

 

[dblas]

HBAR revival time. God bless the AR15 in all its shapes, forms, and glory.

Here we go.

WHAT IS AN HBAR??? And no guessing.

A: Is it weight???

no

B: Is it design???

yes. .750 minimum diameter for the full length of the barrel

C: Is it diameter under the handguard???

No, same diameter for the full length of the barrel

D: Is it C plus diameter in front of the gas block???

No, same diameter for the full length of the barrel.

E: Can an HBAR be milled down to lighten it???

no

F: Can an HBAR be turned down to lighten it???

no

G: Can an HBAR be fluted to lighten it???

Yes (I have one)

H: What, past 16 inches, is the legal length of an HBAR barrel???

Diameter has remain the same for the full length, so 16" 18" or 20" diameter has to remain constant.

I: Can an HBAR be heavy (.980 diameter) under the handguard and pencil (.550) ,in front of the gas block???

No

J: Is it a bull barrel???

if it is over .750 for the entire length, then yes.

Inquiring minds want to know.

How'd I do???

 

[lx1x]

no



yes. .750 minimum diameter for the full length of the barrel



No, same diameter for the full length of the barrel



No, same diameter for the full length of the barrel.



no



no



Yes (I have one)



Diameter has remain the same for the full length, so 16" 18" or 20" diameter has to remain constant.



No



if it is over .750 for the entire length, then yes.



How'd I do???

very well..

 

[Ab_Normal]

Since 'HEAVY' is a term used relative to weight and the original AR15 barrels were an average .625" diameter, anything that averaged over .625" diameter would have to be HEAVIER due to more material and therefore a HBAR (Heavy BARrel).

 

[Andras]

AFAIK, Full dia behind the gas block and no M203 cut out ahead of it.

 

[HeatSeeker]

OK now my question is, why does that make it unregulated?

 

[Brooklyn]

OK now my question is, why does that make it unregulated?

Because the law says so. No other reason is needed. Nor should one be sought.

 

[Markp]

Solution to the HBAR problem. Bore it out to 0.308 (aka .300 BLKOUT), flute the barrel, and weigh it against a .223 standard profile barrel. I am betting the .300 BLKOUT fluted will be lighter and definitely considerably lighter than the .223 standard HBAR profile.

Edit correction... the fluted .300 blkout is still a tad heavier than the lightweight profile. Example

Wilson Combat

AR .223 lightweight profile 16" 26 oz.
AR .233 RECON Tactical 16" 35 oz.
AR .223 RECON Tactical 18" 39 oz.
AR .233 Super Sniper (.938 OD) 20" 63 oz.

AR .300 RECON Tactical 18" Fluted 31 oz.

Just for added giggles
AR 6.8 SPC II RECON Tactical 16" Fluted 29 oz.
AR 6.8 SPC II RECON Tactical 18" Fluted 32.4 oz.
.458 SOCOM in 14.7" length, 21 oz. Oh Ya. Shooting Bowling Balls at you.


That's close enough to the lightweight tactical 16" barrel that I would not complain.

 

[sywl95]

Shush....!!

OK now my question is, why does that make it unregulated?

 

[occbrian]

I spoke to Andy Afrom Engage yesterday at the show. Said he's going to stamp HBAR on their lowers after 10/1.

 

[Ab_Normal]

I spoke to Andy Afrom Engage yesterday at the show. Said he's going to stamp HBAR on their lowers after 10/1.

He wouldn't be the first to do so.

 

[Hopalong]

I spoke to Andy Afrom Engage yesterday at the show. Said he's going to stamp HBAR on their lowers after 10/1.

Do we have any indication from MSP that this would make them legal to sell post 10/1? I've read conflicting reports on the topic of HBAR lowers.

 

[occbrian]

Do we have any indication from MSP that this would make them legal to sell post 10/1? I've read conflicting reports on the topic of HBAR lowers.

No. But I think Andy will be the first person to tell them to go f themselves and take it to court.

 

[pilotguy299]

I am surprised that Colt didn't just do that years ago. They could have old thousands of lowers in MD that way. And if they say it is a Colt H-Bar, who can say otherwise?