Maryland Shall Issue Files Suit Against the Maryland State Police

[ShoreShooter]

Whether or not they would be on the "hook" for civil liability really would be one heck of a court fight. They would be on the hook for attorneys fees though if their liability insurer will not pick up the tab. Ultimately, it comes down to whether or not the dealer follows a reasonable standard of care in releasing a firearm. The argument can be made that the dealer sent in the Form 77r, waited the amount of time proscribed by law, and figured that the MSP was being diligent on its end and doing an initial NICS check on these purchasers as soon as the application came in. They can also argue that MSP, per the lawsuit, was to hire more people and get back to timely review of these applications.

I think there are a lot of arguments that can be made regarding why a dealer that follows the law should NOT be liable for the actions of a purchaser after the fact.

It would be one heck of a lawsuit though and the attorneys fees would probably be substantial.

The outcome would be highly dependent on who the Judge is. And we have to remember this is MD after all.

And since the higher courts are pretty liberal, appeals would likely go against any 2A advocates.

One outcome of liberal legislators and Governors is a court system packed with liberals.

 

[Vic]

I was talking to a friend with an FFL. He said that a firearm issued without a NICS number could come back to burn the FFL. He said that the MSP may not be an issue, but without a NICS number attached you are now in violation of the Brady Bill and the Feds. The ATF officer told him that.

If this is the case, I wouldn't release either. MD wouldn't care if you lose your FFL, would they?

Vic

 

[MJD438]

Per the FAQ (see prior posts with the link, it has been posted often enough that anyone should be able to find it multiple times using the search function), this is not correct. In addition, per the ATF 4473 instructions, a NICS number is only required if the transaction is completed (and the firearm transfers to the new owner) within three business days of the origin of the transaction.

However, if a firearm is transferred within the three business day period, a transaction number is required.

(see ATF 4473 Secured PDF, Page 6, first column, end of second paragraph)

IANAL, but that seems to infer, to this layman and in plain English, that a NICS number is only required when a transfer is completed within three days.

 

[dblas]

Everyone seems to keep quoting that. Yes its from the ATF, but as I read it and my FFL replied to me all it says is that the licensee MAY release. What it fails to detail is the HOW the 4473 should be filled out.

I will not outwardly say we lost but it sure feels like we are missing something. I think if it was something obvious, more FFL's would be releasing and those that are releasing would not be so secretive of how they are filling out 4473.

My bet is that those that are releasing and not saying how they are filling out 4473 are just filling it out how they think is best and hoping that they are right. They don't want to show their hand and be caught wrong and have more to pay for.

Why should it detail how the 4473 should be filled out, can't the FFL read and follow the instructions on the form 4473 (There are 3 1/2 pages of instruction on filling out the form).

No one is being secretive about filling out the form, they appear to be reading the instructions and filling out the form per the instructions.

My bet is that they have read the 3 1/2 pages of instructions and followed those instruction when filling out the 4473.


Page 6 of form 4473 has instructions on what to do if the NICS check is delayed.

At the time that NICS is contacted, the licensee must record in question 21.a- c: the date of contact, the NICS (or State) transaction number, and the initial response provided by NICS or the State. The licensee may record the Missing Disposition Information (MDI) date in 21.c. that NICS provides for delayed transactions (States do not provide this number). If the licensee receives a “delayed” response, before transferring the firearm, the licensee must record in question 21.d. any response later provided by NICS or the State or that no resolution was provided within 3 business days. If the licensee receives a response from NICS or the State after the firearm has been transferred, he or she must record this information in question 21.e. Note: States acting as points of contact for NICS checks may use terms other than “proceed,” “delayed,” “cancelled,” or “denied.” In such cases, the licensee should check the box that corresponds to the State’s response. Some States may not provide a transaction number for denials. However, if a firearm is transferred within the three business day period, a transaction number is required.

The above is directly from the instructions for the 4473.

Link to ATF 4473: http://www.atf.gov/files/forms/download/atf-f-4473-1.pdf

 

[dblas]

Per the FAQ (see prior posts with the link, it has been posted often enough that anyone should be able to find it multiple times using the search function), this is not correct. In addition, per the ATF 4473 instructions, a NICS number is only required if the transaction is completed (and the firearm transfers to the new owner) within three business days of the origin of the transaction.

(see ATF 4473 Secured PDF, Page 6, first column, end of second paragraph)

IANAL, but that seems to infer, to this layman and in plain English, that a NICS number is only required when a transfer is completed within three days.

That is how I read it, and if there is either no NICS Transfer Number (NTN), that status is entered in 21.d (No resolution was provided within 3 business days).

 

[fabsroman]

I'd say they understand that there are lawyers that will sue for a hangnail ... or spilled coffee

There are so many attorneys out there that need to feed their families, that they will sue sometimes just in the hope of a settlement in lieu of the defendant incurring attorneys fees in the matter. Heck, I would advise most of my clients to settle a claim for the cost of the defense in lieu of going through the entire pain of a litigation case and run the risk of losing anyway, even though it might be a slight risk of losing.

 

[Faderhaus]

^^ Can You Explain Why Some Dealers Still Won't Release Everything On The First ND Coming Back For Designated Collectors? The Paperwork In Their Hands Says This Person Is Good To Go, Yet They Want Paperwork Per Firearm...

Yeah, One word Summary of my previous post:

LIABILITY
​

 

[fabsroman]

The outcome would be highly dependent on who the Judge is. And we have to remember this is MD after all.

And since the higher courts are pretty liberal, appeals would likely go against any 2A advocates.

One outcome of liberal legislators and Governors is a court system packed with liberals.

Well, any large claim would be settled by a jury, but the Maryland higher courts are not completely against gun owners. State v. Chow is an example where the highest Court in Maryland sided with a gun owner.

Also, they would be creating precedent for all tort law, not just tort law as it pertain to firearms dealers.

 

[Faderhaus]

There are so many attorneys out there that need to feed their families, that they will sue sometimes just in the hope of a settlement in lieu of the defendant incurring attorneys fees in the matter. Heck, I would advise most of my clients to settle a claim for the cost of the defense in lieu of going through the entire pain of a litigation case and run the risk of losing anyway, even though it might be a slight risk of losing.

Yep, Spoken like a true attorney. My first clue was when you started with "There are so many that need to feed".... (you could have stopped that sentence right there and most everyone would have understood).

Perhaps, you might consider that there are too many? The airwaves of America are clogged with ambulance chasing commercials. Not that I dislike attorneys, don't get me wrong, I have a distinct affection for them, posed by this riddle:

What's the difference between a Catfish and an Attorney?
One is a scum sucking bottom feeder, the other is a fish. Nothing personal, LOL, it's just my way of poking.

 

[L0gic]

Yeah, One word Summary of my previous post:

LIABILITY
​

That is illogical. Liability over what? The paperwork they have in hand says MSP has thoroughly vetted this person and found no reason the handgun on the paperwork should not be released to them as of the fax date. If there is no liability for releasing one regulated firearm, there should be no liability in releasing all of their firearms that very moment.

MD liberal idiocy aside, the burden is not on the dealer to do anything beyond submit the paperwork to the State POC and wait the required number of days before releasing. I understand dealers who won't release to unfamiliar parties in case some criminal element is trying to play the system right now, but if he has paperwork that says you can own a firearm, I see no reason why they would not release "all" your firearms at that moment.

The reason I was given was literally "If we get audited and the number of guns we say we have does not match the number of guns we actually have, we will lose our license". I'm sorry, that does not fly but I did not push the issue because it was a lost cause with my old FFL. If I sign the paperwork that says I took receipt of the firearm then that says they should no longer be in your possession. I don't know of any FFLs that will release your gun to you and not have you sign the pickup section.

 

[fabsroman]

Yep, Spoken like a true attorney. My first clue was when you started with "There are so many that need to feed".... (you could have stopped that sentence right there and most everyone would have understood).

Perhaps, you might consider that there are too many? The airwaves of America are clogged with ambulance chasing commercials. Not that I dislike attorneys, don't get me wrong, I have a distinct affection for them, posed by this riddle:

What's the difference between a Catfish and an Attorney?
One is a scum sucking bottom feeder, the other is a fish. Nothing personal, LOL, it's just my way of poking.

Yeah, no offense taken. That is why I make sure I also tell people I'm a CPA. Also, if you think that is the first time I have heard that one or been the butt end of an attorney joke.....

It all comes down to supply and demand. With a lot more attorneys out there, it is easier and cheaper for somebody to obtain representation.

It would be nice if they did the same thing with doctors. Then health care might be more affordable. Obama should have thought about putting more medical schools out there, not passing Obamacare forcing everybody to pay for health insurance or face an additional "tax".

 

[Mark75H]

Logic doesn't enter into it, its law

 

[ShallNotInfringe]

I just have two questions:

A. Why does it take a week to fax after the ND?
B. Has anyone that has "skin in the game" been over to tour the operation?

Still looking to see if anyone can answer these questions.

Seems we should have something on these.

 

[BondJamesBond]

Yeah, no offense taken. That is why I make sure I also tell people I'm a CPA. Also, if you think that is the first time I have heard that one or been the butt end of an attorney joke.....

It all comes down to supply and demand. With a lot more attorneys out there, it is easier and cheaper for somebody to obtain representation.

It would be nice if they did the same thing with doctors. Then health care might be more affordable. Obama should have thought about putting more medical schools out there, not passing Obamacare forcing everybody to pay for health insurance or face an additional "tax".

My doctor does not bill me for phone calls, filling out prescriptions, or writing lab orders. The lawyers I worked for billed for EACH and EVERYTHING they did. They charged for THINKING about your case.

 

[Les Gawlik]

My doctor does not bill me for phone calls, filling out prescriptions, or writing lab orders. The lawyers I worked for billed for EACH and EVERYTHING they did. They charged for THINKING about your case.

The lawyer didn't charge your insurance company $500 for opening the door and looking in on you, either. I just saw a bill from a physician's assistant who was participating in a back operation - $18,000.00 for a morning's work. This wasn't the orthopedic surgeon or the neurosurgeon, this was a physician's assistant.

If you have agreed to pay your lawyer by the hour, why shouldn't he charge you for phone calls? Did you discuss sports with him, or your legal matters?

I suspect you have no idea what your doctor is being paid for treating you. It is a rare patient who pays cash for service exclusively. However, it is coming back because of the outrageous requirements the federal governments places upon providers.

 

[Jim M]

The impact of this lawsuit has been near nothing. Wait times haven't gone down, dealers are still holding onto our (paid for) firearms, and we, the law abiding citizens, are still unable to purchase and take home regulated firearms in anything close to a reasonable time frame. I know who the 8th day dealers are, as I can read the spreadsheet just like anyone else, so no need to tell me about that. But again, taken as a whole, this "win", has resulted in little impact to the issue.

I'm wondering what, if anything is next from MSI, AGC, and NRA? I've received no phone calls, no emails (well, NRA keeps asking for more money and promises to send me another pocket knife made in China), and I find nothing on web sites as to what might be happening. It's hard to support the above organizations, which I currently do, into the future, when I'm not seeing progress. True, things may be much worse without them, no argument there, but I'd like to see something done so we can all enjoy our 2A rights. I'm still a believer, but it's getting harder and harder.

So my question to MSI, or anyone who knows with authority: What is happening next, or are we done and just have to wait at the mercy of MOM and MSP?

 

[MDFF2008]

I am deeply disappointed MSI did not put out any statement. It is an embarrassment to the organization.

That said, we knew that there would be dealers who would not release no matter what. No lawsuit can force dealers to early release, just as no lawsuit can force MSP to do the impossible (process the entire que in 7 days.)

The dealers have been shown the legality of 8th day release, both at the fed and state level. If they choose not to, you have two choices. Respect their decision, or vote with your wallet.

 

[Tomcat]

The impact of this lawsuit has been near nothing. Wait times haven't gone down, dealers are still holding onto our (paid for) firearms, and we, the law abiding citizens, are still unable to purchase and take home regulated firearms in anything close to a reasonable time frame. I know who the 8th day dealers are, as I can read the spreadsheet just like anyone else, so no need to tell me about that. But again, taken as a whole, this "win", has resulted in little impact to the issue.

Last time I looked at the spreadsheet (a couple of days ago) it looked like a 50 / 50 split. About 1/2 the dealers were releasing early or early with restrictions (I think it was 24 early and 26 with restrictions) and about 1/2 (54 or there abouts)were no go, waiting for paperwork. So yea, what did we gain? And yes I'm still waiting (day 69)

 

[MDFF2008]

Last time I looked at the spreadsheet (a couple of days ago) it looked like a 50 / 50 split. About 1/2 the dealers were releasing early or early with restrictions (I think it was 24 early and 26 with restrictions) and about 1/2 (54 or there abouts)were no go, waiting for paperwork. So yea, what did we gain? And yes I'm still waiting (day 69)

How many changed after the lawsuit?

Nothing's going to force 100% of dealers to release early.

 

[glock9mm]

The impact of this lawsuit has been near nothing. Wait times haven't gone down, dealers are still holding onto our (paid for) firearms, and we, the law abiding citizens, are still unable to purchase and take home regulated firearms in anything close to a reasonable time frame. I know who the 8th day dealers are, as I can read the spreadsheet just like anyone else, so no need to tell me about that. But again, taken as a whole, this "win", has resulted in little impact to the issue.

I'm wondering what, if anything is next from MSI, AGC, and NRA? I've received no phone calls, no emails (well, NRA keeps asking for more money and promises to send me another pocket knife made in China), and I find nothing on web sites as to what might be happening. It's hard to support the above organizations, which I currently do, into the future, when I'm not seeing progress. True, things may be much worse without them, no argument there, but I'd like to see something done so we can all enjoy our 2A rights. I'm still a believer, but it's getting harder and harder.

So my question to MSI, or anyone who knows with authority: What is happening next, or are we done and just have to wait at the mercy of MOM and MSP?

Very well said sir!!