The ‘Yell Fire in a Theatre!’ Fallacy.

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  • occbrian

    Ultimate Member
    Jan 3, 2013
    4,905
    in a cave
    Dear advocates of Gun Control:

    When explaining that our right to bear arms is protected by the constitution, I’ve frequently heard anti’s retort that the 1st Amendment is restricted as well. They explain that you can’t yell, “FIRE!” in a movie theater.

    That is correct. There are certain limitations on the 1st Amendment. The fallacy of this argument is that it doesn't directly correlate with a ban on assault weapons, magazine capacity or the right to keep, carry or bear arms. Yes, you can’t yell fire in a crowded public space if there is no fire (at least, not without consequence), but the government doesn't cut your vocal cords or put a muzzle on you before you enter a public space in order to protect the public in the off chance that you would do so. They don't BAN you from owning a voice or a particular TYPE of voice. There ARE current restrictions on the 2nd Amendment. You can own a gun, but you can’t SHOOT PEOPLE WITH IT (without cause) or fire it in a public place. Just like you are allowed to have a voice, but there are restrictions on how and in what manner you can use it. Guns are already restricted in this manner.

    Imagine if the government made any citizen who wished to exercise their right to free speech submit to a background check, fingerprinting and a national database before exercising that right. They would have to pay out of their own pocket for everything. Every person who wanted to exercise their right to free speech would be required to pay $100 for the their Free Speech License and another $15 per public speaking event. They would have to do this every 5 years.

    In order to apply for your Free Speech license, you must be over the age of 21 (because you wouldn't be capable of using free speech or at least, wouldn't understand the ramifications of its use until you reached that age) and take an 8 hour Free Speech training course (paid for by you). Also, you would only be allowed the license if your voice registered under a certain decibel level and was of a particular dialect chosen arbitrarily by the government (because some accents are SCARY!)

    Upon receipt of your Free Speech License, you would be limited on the amount of time you could speak. Only 45 seconds of constant speech would be allowed (because anything that is THAT important can be said in under 45 seconds). There would be no justification for the limit, just that it is lower than what we have now and that equates to "better." You also would have to wait 7 days after applying before you could speak (because we don't want you to say anything rash in the heat of the moment or say something you will regret later). The government has the obligation to protect you from yourself.

    This law would be enacted in order to protect the public from the hateful evil abuses that some people (Westboro Baptist Church) use to harm innocents and to make sure that people aren't verbally abused or ridiculed to the point that they commit suicide (as is the case with many recent teenage suicides). Because, as Glorious Leader has said, “If there is even one step we can take to save another child… then surely we have an obligation to try.”

    Sounds pretty ridiculous right?

    Ya, we think so too.
     
    Last edited:

    ken792

    Ultimate Member
    Sep 2, 2011
    4,491
    Fairfax, VA
    Not to mention that to yell "fire" in a crowded theater demonstrates malicious intent. To buy and own an "assault rifle" with "high capacity" magazines demonstrates no evil intent.
     

    Tyeraxus

    Ultimate Member
    May 15, 2012
    1,165
    East Tennessee
    Actually, I believe you CAN yell "Fire!" in a crowded theatre. IIRC, the point was that, if you do so you can't claim First Amendment immunity from liability for the subsequent happenings.

    That being said, you're spot on. Would you mind if I shared, and how should I credit the writer?
     

    Tyeraxus

    Ultimate Member
    May 15, 2012
    1,165
    East Tennessee
    Actually, I believe you CAN yell "Fire!" in a crowded theatre. IIRC, the point was that, if you do so you can't claim First Amendment immunity from liability for the subsequent happenings.

    That being said, you're spot on. Would you mind if I shared, and how should I credit you/the writer?
     

    m&p9

    Active Member
    Dec 18, 2012
    240
    Salisbury
    Dear advocates of Gun Control:


    Sounds pretty ridiculous right?

    Ya, we think so too.

    Thats awesome.:lol2: breaking it down like that really shows how stupid these proposed new laws are. You should send that to all the government officials
     

    jr88

    Ultimate Member
    MDS Supporter
    Mar 7, 2011
    3,161
    Free?? State
    I have never understood the analogy of this.
    "Yelling Fire" in a crowded theater is utilizing free speech and is perfectly fine if a fire exists. It is the proper use of a god given right, not the possession of that right that is in question, no one ever says it IF you can possess Free Speech, it is how it's used that comes into argument.
    Hasn't this always been the same treatment of the 2nd Amendment? We have been, and will be judged and held responsible on how we use our firearms. We are all aware of this, and have been responsible with this Right, or paid the consequences.
    The second Amendment clearly states the right to KEEP and BEAR arms, we have always been held responsible for how we BEAR arms, but now they want to take away the right to KEEP arms. This would be like cutting our tongues out; We could never yell "Fire" even when there was one!
     

    vector03

    Frustrated Incorporated
    Jan 7, 2009
    2,519
    Columbia
    See, it's not true.

    I can yell "Fire" in a crowded movie theater that isn't on fire. However, I had better be prepared for the consequences of my actions...because there will be consequences.......just like if I indiscriminately shoot rifle rounds off in that same movie theater.

    That's the point though. It's been made illegal to shout "Fire" in a movie theater when there is no fire. But there is nothing physically stopping me from doing it. All RIGHTS should be used the same way. With respect, caution, and intelligence.
     

    alucard0822

    For great Justice
    Oct 29, 2007
    17,711
    PA
    That is true, but there is nothing illegal about yelling fire, it is the resulting action of creating a public disturbance that is the crime. Instead of letting gun control advocates put you in a box with some cliche argument, and simply responding to it, make them think, go on the offensive, counter their argument, and use it as a segway to your own.

    "there are 1A restrictions, yelling fire in a crowded theater for example"

    Actually that is a perfect example of the fallacies of gun control, yelling "fire" is not illegal, creating a disturbance is, proof that in that instance 1A is respected and unrestricted, only the malicious action is a criminal act, not the word or speech. In some cases the theater may actually BE on fire, and someone who yells to alert others of the danger can save lives.

    "Getting away from my example of yelling fire, the point is that guns hurt people, and government should protect people from being hurt by others"

    It is great that you brought that up though, there are parrallels, the public not only accepts, but demands that fire extinguishers and alarms are available to stop a fire, and prevent innocent people from being injured because the government, in this case fire fighters may not respond before the fire becomes dangerous, people are empowered and equipped to protect themselves. This happens every day with firearms, people stop attacks, and save lives as a result, you don't advocate banning fire alarms because some kid might pull one as a prank do you?

    Then they usually call you something that cannot be repeated here as gun owners cheer you on, and undecided bystanders look to understand your point, and pay more attention to you.
     

    MicheleM

    Active Member
    Feb 13, 2013
    147
    Cecil County
    Someone (a woman) on the panel yesterday used this analogy as a rationale for this proposed bill. I've been thinking about it a lot since I heard her.

    Celtic159 is right that the argument is moot since the Brandenburg case. This article explained it well for me.

    http://civil-liberties.yoexpert.com...-shout-"fire"-in-a-crowded-theater-19421.html

    Excerpt:
    "So if a court can prove that you incite imminent lawlessness by falsely shouting "fire" in a crowded theater, it can convict you. If you incite an unlawful riot, your speech is "brigaded" with illegal action, and you will have broken the law. But merely falsely shouting "fire" does not break the law, even if it risks others’ safety."

    You now have to "incite imminent lawlessness" to be convicted. Replace "shouting fire" with owning/purchasing a gun on this proposal's list and see if it holds true. I know the two rights are different, but the most recent changes reflect the personal responsibility involved. Simply because you own a certain gun does not bring you into complicity with someone who commits a crime with the same type of gun.
     

    zmayhem

    Active Member
    Feb 2, 2012
    951
    Here is an argument I had on Facebook with an Anti about this recently:

    Mollie
    February 13
    Just because you have a right to free speech doesn't mean you can yell "fire!" in a crowded theater for no reason. Just because you have a right to bear arms does not mean you can own a 100 round clip for no reason.
    So, tell me how many rights you've lost?
    Like ·
    2 people like this.

    Zach W "You CAN yell "fire" in a crowded theater for no reason if you choose to. You shouldn't, and may have to pay for it in some way or another if you choose to, but we all have the ability to.
    Not a really good comparison anyway.
    You're comparing me yelling something in public that may risk people being injured to me owning something. They're called magazines, not clips, and 100 round ones are very uncommon because they are very expensive and illegal to possess in many states. The 30 round ones are much more common and standard. They also make 10 and 20 round magazines for the states such as Maryland where it is illegal to purchase any magazine that can hold over 20 rounds. Me, being a law abiding citizen and owning a "100 round clip" doesn't pose a danger or threat to anybody.
    February 13 at 1:41pm · Edited · Like · 3

    Zach W "I guess your next comparison will be "people who own guns should have to pay insurance and register them like we do cars." We are guaranteed the right to bear arms in the constitution. It is an inalienable right, God given and supposedly protected by our government. EVERYBODY has the right. Nowhere in there is anything about a "right to drive." Driving is a privilege, and to enjoy that privilege you must pay the price. Not a good comparison either, as adding a bunch of extra fees and "insurance" will make gun ownership an impossibility for some folks who just don't have the money, thus preventing them from enjoying one of their freedoms.
    February 13 at 1:48pm · Like
     

    racerbob66

    Active Member
    Nov 19, 2009
    111
    North East, MD
    Great post. I had a coworker give me the the same "can't yell fire" argument last week and I really didn't have a good response.

    How do you respond when they ask "where do draw the line, rockets, tanks?"
     

    aireyc

    Ultimate Member
    Jan 14, 2013
    1,166
    Great post. I had a coworker give me the the same "can't yell fire" argument last week and I really didn't have a good response.

    How do you respond when they ask "where do draw the line, rockets, tanks?"

    We should be allowed to own them as well. Of course this will make you sound insane, but technically and logically speaking, yes, we should be allowed to own them. The problem with the gun argument is this Second Amendment basis. People justify owning guns based on the fact that there's a Second Amendment right. If somehow the Constitution were to be amended to get rid of the 2A, wouldn't you still want to own guns? What would your argument be then?

    This takes the argument away from the 2A and to a personal liberty debate, which I argue should allow for people to possess practically anything unless it is used against another in an undesirable way. If I have a big piece of property and I want to shoot rockets from a tank, I should be allowed to do that. As long as I don't shoot my neighbors or use the tools for nefarious purposes, it shouldn't matter what I possess.

    The main problem we have is that the people who are anti-gun are so off the deep end, and probably mentally unstable, that they can't even comprehend the purpose of the Second Amendment and our right to bear arms. Do you think they'll ever be able to understand the concept of personal liberty? Hahaha, good luck trying to explain that to them.
     

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