Is there a downside to having a CCW?

[paxfish]

As I ponder whether to apply soon, I wonder:

When pulled over in your car, is your identity flagged on the police database as a CCW permit holder?

Must you announce you're a permit holder, even if you are not carrying?

In a civil or criminal case, is there a presumption that as a CCW permit holder you should "know better" and therefore might have more liability in certain situations? Licensed charter captains have similar liabilities....

Is having a CCW considered probable cause for a search in any way?

Can a police officer demand to see or secure your weapon once you've declared your status?

Does your permit cover you while boating in Maryland waters? Are you required to present it to MDDNR police when stopped (or USCG for that matter?)

Thanks,

 

[Indiana Jones]

As I ponder whether to apply soon, I wonder:

When pulled over in your car, is your identity flagged on the police database as a gun owner?

Must you announce you're a permit holder, even if you are not carrying?

In a civil or criminal case, is there a presumption that as a CCW permit holder you should "know better" and therefore might have more liability in certain situations? Licensed charter captains have similar liabilities....

Is having a CCW considered probable cause for a search in any way?

Can a police officer demand to see or secure your weapon once you've declared your status?

Does your permit cover you while boating in Maryland waters? Are you required to present it to MDDNR police when stopped (or USCG for that matter?)

Thanks,

there is NO POLICE DATABASE that can be accessed from KDTs to show if you are a CCW holder.

 

[lx1x]

As I ponder whether to apply soon, I wonder:

When pulled over in your car, is your identity flagged on the police database as a CCW permit holder?
heard rumors.. but its just that i bet.. rumors.

Must you announce you're a permit holder, even if you are not carrying?
no.. no reason to.

In a civil or criminal case, is there a presumption that as a CCW permit holder you should "know better" and therefore might have more liability in certain situations? Licensed charter captains have similar liabilities....
having a CCW.. bare minimum.. you should know the laws. but i highly doubt it will be used against you.. unless you are those type of guys that you carry a ccw badge.

Is having a CCW considered probable cause for a search in any way?
highly doubt it.. they wont waste their time unless you being uncooperative.

Can a police officer demand to see or secure your weapon once you've declared your status?
hit or miss.. see post above
Does your permit cover you while boating in Maryland waters? Are you required to present it to MDDNR police when stopped (or USCG for that matter?)
CG.. there is a thread about that here somewhere.. dont know about DNR

Thanks,

just my 2 cents.

 

[wilcam47]

there is NO POLICE DATABASE that can be accessed from KDTs to show if you are a CCW holder.

Depends on the state...in Idaho when they run your drivers license it pops up if you have a concealed carry license...I know this from personal experience! I ran a red light and gave the cop my license...he came back almost drawing his gun on me...he was mad cuz I didnt tell him I had a concealed weapons license...I told him I didnt have to if I wasnt carrying concealed which that day I wasnt.

 

[esqappellate]

Depends on the state...in Idaho when they run your drivers license it pops up if you have a concealed carry license...I know this from personal experience! I ran a red light and gave the cop my license...he came back almost drawing his gun on me...he was mad cuz I didnt tell him I had a concealed weapons license...I told him I didnt have to if I wasnt carrying concealed which that day I wasnt.

I believe VA also flags your VA driver's license. YMMV, but IMHO, if you are carrying on your permit, the best and *safest* thing to do is to put both hands on the steering wheel, inform the officer right away that you have a permit to carry and that you are carrying and simply ask how he would like proceed. Then follow his directions precisely. It makes him feel safe which keeps you safe.

 

[Name Taken]

Um....it's pointless to base your apply/dont apply at this point based off of what you posted.

First let's see if MD can uphold the G&S thing first. If they lose that just wait till the next session in Annapolis as they will add to the laws.

There is a CCW database maintained by MSP. Not everyone has access to it.

The officer has a right to feel safe in dealing with you. If you have a CCW and rant and rave and carry on you can expect your gun stowed during the encounter. If you act like a normal freaking person you likely wont have any issues.....ask the CCW holders here how their encounters go. Not much will change.

 

[ToneGrail]

there is NO POLICE DATABASE that can be accessed from KDTs to show if you are a CCW holder.

Ohio LE has access to this information on their MDTs.

 

[highwayheat]

Althought there is no database or flag on your MVA info for permits, an officer can still access the MSP regulated weapons data base roadside from their data terminal if they know how.

 

[paxfish]

Um....it's pointless to base your apply/dont apply at this point based off of what you posted.

I understand your opinion. Thanks to all who answered thus far.

 

[swinokur]

As I understand it, and ESQ please correct me, an LEO can only remove your weapon if you are being detained during an "investigative stop." The officer must be able to "reasonably articulate" that either a crime is aboiut to happen, is happening, or has happened and he feels you may be armed and dangerous. I believe courts have ruled that an officer MAY remove your firearm from your possession during an "investigative stop" for his own safety as well. But he cannot do it during a casual encounter IIRC.

Google Terry vs. Ohio

But none of your questions should prevent you from exercising your 2A rights once the permit issue is decided IMO.

 

[swinokur]

VA LEO's can get permit info from the registered owners DL from their terminals. It requires an extra step on the LEO's part. Not sure about NR permits though.

 

[esqappellate]

As I understand it, and ESQ please correct me, an LEO can only remove your weapon if you are being detained during an "investigative stop." The officer must be able to "reasonably articulate" that either a crime is aboiut to happen, is happening, or has happened and he feels you may be armed and dangerous. I believe courts have ruled that an officer MAY remove your firearm from your possession during an "investigative stop" for his own safety as well. But he cannot do it during a casual encounter IIRC.

Google Terry vs. Ohio

But none of your questions should prevent you from exercising your 2A rights once the permit issue is decided IMO.

Terry shops are very ambiguous situations as to which judges widely differ. A traffic stop is the LAST place to argue with the LEO about it. If he wants to take temporary possession during the stop, then For God's Sake, comply immediately.

 

[HeatSeeker]

I would just like to know if anyone knows for a fact if police in MD can see if you have a CCP simply by running your license during a traffic stop?

 

[swinokur]

Terry shops are very ambiguous situations as to which judges widely differ. A traffic stop is the LAST place to argue with the LEO about it. If he wants to take temporary possession during the stop, then For God's Sake, comply immediately.

I believe a traffic stop is an "investigative stop" from which you cannot just leave. IMO a LEO is totally within his right to disarm you for his safety if he feels it is necessary. I'm guessing there is plenty of case law to support this.

IANAL but ESQ is !

 

[Indiana Jones]

i thought this thread was talking about maryland. for those of you saying other states have a database, cool. in MD there is NOT a database that shows CCW holders. at least not yet. we will see what happens after everyone is carrying. but as of now when running someone you get the pertinant info and nothing else.

 

[Indiana Jones]

I believe a traffic stop is an "investigative stop" from which you cannot just leave. IMO a LEO is totally within his right to disarm you for his safety if he feels it is necessary. I'm guessing there is plenty of case law to support this.

IANAL but ESQ is !

Traffic stops are classified as M (motorvehicle: stop sign, red light run, weaving etc) R (radar) and I (investigative). but all these stops are the same for the subject stopped. the M R and I is for the officer to classify/articulate his reason for the stop on paper. an I stop is handled like pretty much all the other ones. I stops require an additional form. (depending on departmental policy)

bold

 

[Bob A]

OK, I have a Utah permit. Is this going to be flagged if I'm in another state? Will VA know, for example?

Just how pervasive is the ability to access this information?

 

[esqappellate]

I believe a traffic stop is an "investigative stop" from which you cannot just leave. IMO a LEO is totally within his right to disarm you for his safety if he feels it is necessary. I'm guessing there is plenty of case law to support this.

IANAL but ESQ is !

You likely got pulled over for a traffic offense. That's a crime. The stop is itself a seizure within the meaning of the 4th Amendment. The officer has a right to secure the scene for his own protection:

See Brendlin v. California, 551 U.S. 249, 127 S.Ct. 2400 U.S.Cal.,2007.

The law is settled that in Fourth Amendment terms a traffic stop entails a seizure of the driver “even though the purpose of the stop is limited and the resulting detention quite brief.” Delaware v. Prouse, 440 U.S. 648, 653, 99 S.Ct. 1391, 59 L.Ed.2d 660 (1979); see also Whren v. United States, 517 U.S. 806, 809–810, 116 S.Ct. 1769, 135 L.Ed.2d 89 (1996). And although we have not, until today, squarely answered the question whether a passenger is also seized, we have said over and over in dicta that during a traffic stop an officer seizes everyone in the vehicle, not just the driver.

****
It is also reasonable for passengers to expect that a police officer at the scene of a crime, arrest, or investigation will not let people move around in ways that could jeopardize his safety. In Maryland v. Wilson, 519 U.S. 408, 117 S.Ct. 882, 137 L.Ed.2d 41 (1997), we held that during a lawful traffic stop an officer may order a passenger out of the car as a precautionary measure, without reasonable suspicion that the passenger poses a safety risk. Id., at 414–415, 117 S.Ct. 882; cf. Pennsylvania v. Mimms, 434 U.S. 106, 98 S.Ct. 330, 54 L.Ed.2d 331 (1977) (per curiam) (driver may be ordered out of the car as a matter of course). In fashioning this rule, we invoked our earlier statement that “ ‘[t]he risk of harm to both the police and the occupants is minimized if the officers routinely exercise unquestioned command of the situation.’ ” Wilson, supra, at 414, 117 S.Ct. 882 (quoting Michigan v. Summers, 452 U.S. 692, 702–703, 101 S.Ct. 2587, 69 L.Ed.2d 340 (1981)). What we have said in these opinions probably reflects a societal expectation of “ ‘unquestioned [police] command’ ” at odds with any notion that a passenger would feel free to leave, or to terminate the personal encounter any other way, without advance permission. Wilson, supra, at 414, 117 S.Ct. 882.

See also: Knowles v. Iowa, 525 U.S. 113, 119 S.Ct. 484 U.S.Iowa,1998

For example, they *118 may order out of a vehicle both the driver, Mimms, supra, at 111, 98 S.Ct. 330, and any passengers, Wilson, supra, at 414, 117 S.Ct. 882; perform a “patdown” of a driver and any passengers upon reasonable suspicion that they may be armed and dangerous, Terry v. Ohio, 392 U.S. 1, 88 S.Ct. 1868, 20 L.Ed.2d 889 (1968); conduct a “ Terry patdown” of the passenger compartment of a vehicle upon reasonable suspicion that an occupant is dangerous and may gain immediate control of a weapon, Michigan v. Long, 463 U.S. 1032, 1049, 103 S.Ct. 3469, 77 L.Ed.2d 1201 (1983); and even conduct a full search of the passenger compartment, including any containers therein, pursuant to a custodial arrest, New York v. Belton, 453 U.S. 454, 460, 101 S.Ct. 2860, 69 L.Ed.2d 768 (1981).

 

[aray]

Masaad Ayoob is always worth a repost:

 

[esqappellate]

OK, I have a Utah permit. Is this going to be flagged if I'm in another state? Will VA know, for example?

Just how pervasive is the ability to access this information?

Don't know the answer to that one. It is normally feasible for HQ to check on the validity of an OofS license and if your issuing state links the permit to the license, then yes, the LEO might well find out when he does the wants and warrants on you and your vehicle.