SAF SUES IN MARYLAND OVER HANDGUN PERMIT DENIAL UPDATED 3-5-12

[INMY01TA]

Woollard won't save him. It just struck down G&S under the permit statute -- it didn't make it legal to carry a handgun without a permit. He is charged under 4-203 and that statute was unaddressed in Woollard. Unless he can show he was transporting within one of the exceptions in 4-203, he may be toast.

Perhaps he was on his way to a dog obedience training class...

 

[esqappellate]

Perhaps he was on his way to a dog obedience training class...

Or the range, the informal target shooting range.... Or maybe on the way to the gunsmith or whatever else he can dream up. But he has the burden of coming forward with evidence and it is a jury question if it isn't so clear as to justify taking it from the jury in a directed verdict. I wish him luck, but it is a good object lesson.

 

[MJD438]

Perhaps he was on his way to a dog obedience training class...

Or the range, the informal target shooting range.... Or maybe on the way to the gunsmith or whatever else he can dream up. But he has the burden of coming forward with evidence and it is a jury question if it isn't so clear as to justify taking it from the jury in a directed verdict. I wish him luck, but it is a good object lesson.

Of course, neither one of those options allows for loaded transport...but, I agree with others - he will be washed through the system somehow and we will never hear about it again, since he is a former member of TPTB.

 

[drblast33]

Of course, neither one of those options allows for loaded transport...but, I agree with others - he will be washed through the system somehow and we will never hear about it again, since he is a former member of TPTB.

I dont think it said if it was loaded or not.

 

[fightinbluhen51]

It is quite simple really. Gansler is attempting to defend an indefensible position. Yet he is obligated to defend his client, the state.

If you start with the presumption that there is no right to possess a firearm outside of the home, then his arguement makes sense. Take that out, however, and there is no way they can defense G&S.

I almost feel sorry for him. Almost, not quite, but almost.

Well...I've been the eternal optimist on this court case (and I am not an optimist for anything else)...but Esq brings up a valid point, the State of Maryland DOES issue permits. Is it fair? No, not in the slightest, but they do issue them.

My point? The question before the CA4 is simple: does the 2A apply equally outside the home and to all persons who are effectively not "prohibited persons" or are some more equal than others?

That whole "reasonable restrictions" thing presents a big hurdle, even after having listened to Posner ask about TPM dicta in Heller from CA7.

We see the light...and I highly doubt it's the train, but we could all be fooled. I just wish he wasn't wasting OUR tax dollars to defend this position.

 

[MJD438]

I dont think it said if it was loaded or not.

Sorry - will stop the OT after this one, since there is a thread about the news article. First sentence of the fifth paragraph of the Baltimore Sun article previously linked states that it was a loaded .38.

 

[swinokur]

MSP will have a hard time using the "it's too hard for us defense"

WI went from NO ISSUE to SHALL ISSUE overnight and IIRC has issued more than 100k permits since the law changed.

That steaming pile won't work either. Sorry MSP. Pull on your big boy pants now.

 

[Broadside]

MSP will have a hard time using the "it's too hard for us defense"

WI went from NO ISSUE to SHALL ISSUE overnight and IIRC has issued more than 100k permits since the law changed.

That steaming pile won't work either. Sorry MSP. Pull on your big boy pants now.

But Maryland isn't going to shall issue. Shall issue states set out the requirements for getting a permit in law. If you meet them you get a permit. If you don't, then you are denied a permit.

Maryland law still vests the MSP with the authority, and responsibility, to determine whether or not an applicant has a "propensity for violence". To meet this responsibility under the COMAR, the MSP must perform an investigation.

MSP can delay issuing permits as long as it wants under the guise it is performing investigations as required by the COMAR.

 

[swinokur]

I guess my point is that MSP's position that physically issuing a large number of permits is an undue burden is just not supported by looking at other state's permit procedures.

That's just not the case. The fact that they can take 90 days is ok. Some states take 6 months. But using the excuse that the infrastructure can't support a larger scale permit process is just not true.

ETA-I believe MD can be called Shall Issue if G & S is struck down. As in other states, after a background check perhaps including an investigation, if nothing prohibits the issuance, the state "shall issue" a permit. MD's investigation may be more thorough (or not) than states who do just a background check, but in the absence of any prohibiting factors, they "shall issue" the permit. I do agree the investigatory process could be manipulated but we need to watch MSP on that if permit issuance is mandated.

But saying issuance to citizens creates some kind of burden flies in the face of the other 43 states who do it.

 

[Maestro Pistolero]

Not if he was under the influence of drugs or alcohol.

The fact that he was removed from the vehicle lead me to believe this is in fact the case.

Not necessarily. If the officer suspected there may have been a gun, he may have wanted to remove him from it's proximity. The fact that he ask TWICE about weapons in the car makes me wonder. But since the prosecutor was removed from the car, if he didn't didn't give permission, there may not have been any RS or PC to proceed with a search. As usual, we probably are missing some info.

 

[Mr. Ed]

Of course, neither one of those options allows for loaded AND ACCESSIBLE FROM THE PASSENGER COMPARTMENT transport...but, I agree with others - he will be washed through the system somehow and we will never hear about it again, since he is a former member of TPTB.

I dont think it said if it was loaded or not.

Yep. Loaded. In the center console. If it had been one of us, the result would have been, 'Go directly to jail, do not pass GO, and do not collect $200'. Forfeit all guns, get criminal record, kiss any chance of a permit goodbye. Wanna bet how this turns out for the guy? He'll get Zip Point Squat.

 

[Bob A]

He'll apply for a permit, get it, and take it into court. They'll drop the charges.

 

[Inigoes]

He'll apply for a permit, get it, and take it into court. They'll drop the charges.

Ah yes, that pesky little "have you been arrested" question...

 

[safecracker]

I guess my point is that MSP's position that physically issuing a large number of permits is an undue burden is just not supported by looking at other state's permit procedures.

That's just not the case. The fact that they can take 90 days is ok. Some states take 6 months. But using the excuse that the infrastructure can't support a larger scale permit process is just not true.

ETA-I believe MD can be called Shall Issue if G & S is struck down. As in other states, after a background check perhaps including an investigation, if nothing prohibits the issuance, the state "shall issue" a permit. MD's investigation may be more thorough (or not) than states who do just a background check, but in the absence of any prohibiting factors, they "shall issue" the permit. I do agree the investigatory process could be manipulated but we need to watch MSP on that if permit issuance is mandated.

But saying issuance to citizens creates some kind of burden flies in the face of the other 43 states who do it.

Agree completely.

The infrastructure had NO PROBLEM handling the increased workload when private handgun sales became regulated. And it didn't collapse when certain long guns were regulated, either. Funny how the brass at MSP weren't whining about the potential increase in workload in either of those instances.

I thought I read somewhere that when the initial deluge of applications started, the folks in Wisconsin worked overtime without compensation in order to get those permits processed in the timeframe prescribed by law.

 

[Biggfoot44]

He was returning from.a private exhibitation of part of his collection. He probably asummed that he was still Privledged Elete enough to not have been charged in the first place. Expect for the case to be Nol Pros'ed .

 

[Viper-Snipe]

He'll apply for a permit, get it, and take it into court. They'll drop the charges.

While I don't post often, this statement brings a thought to mind.

If he applies for a permit and gets one, it will be after the fact and should not apply.
Like fishing without a lisence, geting busted, getting a lisence, you are still busted due to time you were cought you did not have the right.

Any other thoughts?

 

[swinokur]

Yeah. This is MD.

 

[dlmcbm]

While I don't post often, this statement brings a thought to mind.

If he applies for a permit and gets one, it will be after the fact and should not apply.
Like fishing without a lisence, geting busted, getting a lisence, you are still busted due to time you were cought you did not have the right.

Any other thoughts?

Most comments like that are really joking about it. Really.... after a charge like this... He should never be able to get a CCW permit in Md. Maybe not even own another gun. That is IF they apply the same rules to him that they would to us.

 

[Nobody]

That is IF they apply the same rules to him that they would to us.

They will, just like TPM restricitions will......NOT

NOBODY

 

[mrjam2jab]

They have had since March 5 to prepare for the ghastly horrors of allowing (spit) regular citizens the means to defend themselves outside of the home.

MSP will have a hard time using the "it's too hard for us defense"

WI went from NO ISSUE to SHALL ISSUE overnight and IIRC has issued more than 100k permits since the law changed.

That steaming pile won't work either. Sorry MSP. Pull on your big boy pants now.

A little more perspective: The WI law allowed 4 months from the time the bill was signed to the effective date. So for MD, July 1, 2012 should be PLENTY of time...especially since they already have a number of applications already sitting there ready to be issued.