UPDATE: Copper Fouling

[JasonD67]

I'm primarily a shotgun shooter, so I'll claim that as an excuse.

I have a Ruger American in .223. Nice scope on it and a aftermarket 1.5 pound trigger I put in it. It was (was) a 1 MOA rifle with the proper factory match ammo, with maybe 400 rounds through it at this point. It started to open up to a 1-2 MOA rifle with the same ammo. Reading around I see that copper fouling can be a major cause of rifle inaccuracy over time. I would see a hint of green on the patches when I cleaned that rifle, so I thought that couldn't be an issue. Since I started shooting in the late 80's, I always used good 'ol Hoppes No. 9. Back then, that was it. I see there are other products out there meant to clear out any copper. Some are ammonia based, which I was not interested in using. I see that there are other non-ammonia products out there like Boretech Eliminator. I got hold of some and the pic below is the second patch that went through the bore. Needless to say I was a bit shocked. Later patches were even darker in color. I believe my bore was very copper-fouled from the looks of these patches. I can't wait to get the rifle back to the range to see if there is any improvement.

Do you guys normally shooting rifles use these copper-cleaning products? Surprised there is not more concern out there, as so much of what you read just says to use a CLP or Hoppes to clean your bores.

 

[Doco Overboard]

Lots of people on this forum strictly adhere to not cleaning a firearm due to problems associated with potential mechanical damage.
Accuracy degradation may just be a secondary concern and irrelevant to good maintenance of accuracy because of the popularity of the concept.

 

[Chauchat]

I haven't cleaned any of my rifles in years. Why? I am lazy. Sure I wipe the bore for carbon about once or so every other year. I have not noticed any degraded accuracy in my rifles. Even my K31 shoots tens and Xs if I do my part and I have not swabbed that barrel since I started shooting it two years ago.

Then I stumbled upon GunBlue490's video. Makes sense to me. Your mileage may vary.

The Copper Fouling Lie ~ Don't Fall for It!




Added: Even our fathers and grandfathers didn't worry about copper fouling in their Garands during WW2. They worried about salts.

 

[mac1_131]

I'm primarily a shotgun shooter, so I'll claim that as an excuse.

I have a Ruger American in .223. Nice scope on it and a aftermarket 1.5 pound trigger I put in it. It was (was) a 1 MOA rifle with the proper factory match ammo, with maybe 400 rounds through it at this point. It started to open up to a 1-2 MOA rifle with the same ammo. Reading around I see that copper fouling can be a major cause of rifle inaccuracy over time. I would see a hint of green on the patches when I cleaned that rifle, so I thought that couldn't be an issue. Since I started shooting in the late 80's, I always used good 'ol Hoppes No. 9. Back then, that was it. I see there are other products out there meant to clear out any copper. Some are ammonia based, which I was not interested in using. I see that there are other non-ammonia products out there like Boretech Eliminator. I got hold of some and the pic below is the second patch that went through the bore. Needless to say I was a bit shocked. Later patches were even darker in color. I believe my bore was very copper-fouled from the looks of these patches. I can't wait to get the rifle back to the range to see if there is any improvement.

Do you guys normally shooting rifles use these copper-cleaning products? Surprised there is not more concern out there, as so much of what you read just says to use a CLP or Hoppes to clean your bores.

View attachment 466182

I do not use copper cleaning products. I do from time to time give the barrel a slather of hoppes #9 and let it sit overnight. You'd be surprised what it will do, takes longer, milder on the barrel, but it works.

Sent from my SM-G991U using Tapatalk

 

[inkd]

Check your scope rings and mount.

 

[John from MD]

Clean bore? What eez dis ting you call Cleaning?

 

[Doco Overboard]

I haven't cleaned any of my rifles in years. Why? I am lazy. Sure I wipe the bore for carbon about once or so every other year. I have not noticed any degraded accuracy in my rifles. Even my K31 shoots tens and Xs if I do my part and I have not swabbed that barrel since I started shooting it two years ago.

Then I stumbled upon GunBlue490's video. Makes sense to me. Your mileage may vary.

The Copper Fouling Lie ~ Don't Fall for It!




Added: Even our fathers and grandfathers didn't worry about copper fouling in their Garands during WW2. They worried about salts.

The SR 1 target has a 1.35 x ring and a 3.35 10 ring (have no idea what distance hes shooting) but what the Op is suggesting, is up to a 1-2 MOA degradation of accuracy after utilizing the same ammo with a modern telescoped rifle for a couple hundred rounds.
Would you suggest using more expensive ammo and not cleaning metallic fouling or switching to a K-31 or a Garand?

 

[Melnic]

I have regained accuracy by removing copper fouling and in other cases, regained nothing.
Its not black and white, the world is gray Jack.

 

[outrider58]

Waiting for @E.Shell to opine.

 

[BFMIN]

KNOW rather than guess!
You can buy a bore-scope for peanuts nowadays that runs via a USB from a computer or laptop.
It lets you actually look inside your bore length-ways or to the side with a mirror attachment.

OK cleaners.
I use the M-pro 7 bore cleaner & copper remover. You use them interlaced, one removes powder residue the other dissolves copper jacket fouling. Neither have ammonia, or smell strongly & all are water-based.
To use I swab a dirty bore with the cleaner & brush sparingly with a bronze brush. then I patch out. This removes most of the loose surface stuff.
Next run enough patches whetted with the copper cleaner. Don't scrub. You re just coating the bore with a layer of the solvent. Now stand it muzzle down on newsprint or rags overnight. Its perfectly save to leave in the bore even permanently.
Next day run 3 wet & 3 dry with the bore cleaner.
Patch out with dry patches till they come out clean.
Now go back to patches whetted with the copper cleaner, & another overnight soak.
This will NOT damage your bore as the work is done by the chemistry, not abrasion & scrubbing.
Repeat as often as ended, it may take a while for a heavily fouled bore but keep at it.

http://m-pro7.com/

NTG100 45-inch Flexible USB Borescope

The Teslong NTG100 45-inch long flexible borescope is an ideal gunsmith tool. This borescope helps you see the deposits in the lands and grooves of the rifling and is a great aid when cleaning your barrel. Go to Teslong for all your gun barrel inspection and digital borescope needs.

teslong.com

 

[Chauchat]

The SR 1 target has a 1.35 x ring and a 3.35 10 ring (have no idea what distance hes shooting) but what the Op is suggesting, is up to a 1-2 MOA degradation of accuracy after utilizing the same ammo with a modern telescoped rifle for a couple hundred rounds.
Would you suggest using more expensive ammo and not cleaning metallic fouling or switching to a K-31 or a Garand?

I suggest nothing like that. I was opining to this question. "Do you guys normally shooting rifles use these copper-cleaning products? Surprised there is not more concern out there, as so much of what you read just says to use a CLP or Hoppes to clean your bores."

I do know about the rest of you but I have not forgotten the reason for fire arms and that is to hit man or deer sized targets between two and three hundred yards away. All of my Garand and K31 fodder are hand loads can do that from a rest like a tree branch, stump mounds of dirt. Shooting off hand? Not a chance.

Look, if a gunner feels the need to de-copper his bore by all means go ahead. Some calibers and barrel combos are more prone to copper fouling. I have seen more than a few barrels belonging to friends that were "ruined" from aggressive cleaning. What does that mean? It means they used to hit a circle three and a half inches in diameter at a hundred yards but now could not do so. A typical chest is equal to a twelve inch paper plate. A neck and head is a six inch paper plate. And I am good with that even in my worn out Krags and 1917s

 

[Uncle Duke]

I like Wipe Out foam when I can let a firearm sit overnight. Short of that, Wipe Out Patch Out works very well for cleaning done at the range. Accelerator speeds and improves the performance of both products.

One of the benefits of these products is that there's no need for aggressive and repetitive brushing. It's the aggressive brushing, in combination with grit embedded and oftentimes inexpensive sectional cleaning rods and jags typically coupled with the lack of a bore guide, that's the enemy of bores and muzzle crowns both.

 

[rbird7282]

Waiting for @E.Shell to opine.

THIS!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[paperwork351]

If you decide to remove copper, consider using aluminum bushing rods and jags. Brass jags can give a false positive. Dewey has copper eliminator rods and jags. I know nothing of copper buildup issues in a barrel.

 

[Squaregrouper]

This stuff works for me on my long range rifles. Make sure to read the directions and let it sit before scrubbing.
.

 

[Biggfoot44]

Routinely? No

If I think I have a reason to ? Occasionally

 

[U.S.SFC_RET]

Consider running an electrode in the bore.

 

[Busa]

While we are waiting for E.Shell to reply... I worked for a major rifle manufacturer, and I can tell you this. The number one reason for rifles returned to service with accuracy issues was copper fouling. In the OP's case he did right, once the accuracy falls off it's time to get the copper out. Could the issue be something else? Yes, but you always start with the easiest and most likely cause first. I clean the copper out at least once a year or if I am changing bullet brands as I have seen differences in the jacket gilding cause some loss of accuracy when you are doing comparisons / load workup and looking for the best performance.

 

[JasonD67]

Thanks for the responses, everyone. The first thing I tried was checking the torque on all of my scope rings and base. No problems there. I ordered some of my rifles favorite fodder last night so I'll get it to the range when it comes in.

Does the amount and (potential) negative effect of copper fouling increase with the velocity of the bullet? I could envision a 22-250 having a lot more problem with it compared to a 45-70.

 

[E.Shell]

I haven't cleaned any of my rifles in years. Why? I am lazy. Sure I wipe the bore for carbon about once or so every other year. I have not noticed any degraded accuracy in my rifles. Even my K31 shoots tens and Xs if I do my part and I have not swabbed that barrel since I started shooting it two years ago.

Then I stumbled upon GunBlue490's video. Makes sense to me. Your mileage may vary.

The Copper Fouling Lie ~ Don't Fall for It!

I wouldn't say that jacket fouling is a lie, but I would say that common military applications do not normally recognize the minor differences in precision that copper fouling can make and there are often bigger fish to fry, like carbon and chlorates.

Added: Even our fathers and grandfathers didn't worry about copper fouling in their Garands during WW2. They worried about salts.

Priorities.

Corrosive salts in WW2-era and earlier ammunition will eat a rifle. Precision in an iron-sighted Garand is not such that most users would notice the gradual degradation due to jacket fouling, or even carbon fouling, particularly in a military application.

I have regained accuracy by removing copper fouling and in other cases, regained nothing. Its not black and white, the world is gray Jack.

Agreed. Differing rifle precision potential, bore quality, cartridges' differing bore ratios, differing applications/expectations...

Waiting for @E.Shell to opine.

LOL, but no pressure tho...

KNOW rather than guess!
You can buy a bore-scope for peanuts nowadays that runs via a USB from a computer or laptop.
It lets you actually look inside your bore length-ways or to the side with a mirror attachment.

OK cleaners.
I use the M-pro 7 bore cleaner & copper remover. You use them interlaced, one removes powder residue the other dissolves copper jacket fouling. Neither have ammonia, or smell strongly & all are water-based.
To use I swab a dirty bore with the cleaner & brush sparingly with a bronze brush. then I patch out. This removes most of the loose surface stuff.
Next run enough patches whetted with the copper cleaner. Don't scrub. You re just coating the bore with a layer of the solvent. Now stand it muzzle down on newsprint or rags overnight. Its perfectly save to leave in the bore even permanently.
Next day run 3 wet & 3 dry with the bore cleaner.
Patch out with dry patches till they come out clean.
Now go back to patches whetted with the copper cleaner, & another overnight soak.
This will NOT damage your bore as the work is done by the chemistry, not abrasion & scrubbing.
Repeat as often as ended, it may take a while for a heavily fouled bore but keep at it.

http://m-pro7.com/

NTG100 45-inch Flexible USB Borescope

The Teslong NTG100 45-inch long flexible borescope is an ideal gunsmith tool. This borescope helps you see the deposits in the lands and grooves of the rifling and is a great aid when cleaning your barrel. Go to Teslong for all your gun barrel inspection and digital borescope needs.

teslong.com

I have had a good bore scope for 15 years and I will tell you that while it can be a very useful tool, it will make mountains out of mole hills.

You can see things that have no effect on precision. Scary things. Gigantic-looking things. A light sheen of copper-colored fouling is nothing to be concerned with and a little carbon in the edges of the grooves won't hurt anything. Fire-cracking is easily seen long before it affects precision.

True issues that can be seen are erosion/retreating of the lands and crooked throats.

I like Wipe Out foam when I can let a firearm sit overnight. Short of that, Wipe Out Patch Out works very well for cleaning done at the range. Accelerator speeds and improves the performance of both products.

One of the benefits of these products is that there's no need for aggressive and repetitive brushing. It's the aggressive brushing, in combination with grit embedded and oftentimes inexpensive sectional cleaning rods and jags typically coupled with the lack of a bore guide, that's the enemy of bores and muzzle crowns both.

I am a BIG Wipe-Out fan.

I used to go through 12-packs of Sinclair bore brushes and pint after pint of Sweets 7.62, trying to eliminate fouling. Soak & scrub, patch it out, soak & scrub, patch it out...

Since switching to Wipe-Out, I haven't bought a bore brush in 10 years or more. For day to day use on my match guns, I fill the bore with foam, walk away, patch it out the next morning and I'm done. Even the worst Mosin, which are typically the worst of the worst of neglected rifles, will normally come perfectly clean with 3-4 overnight applications. Foam the bore, wait overnight, patch out... Repeat as required.

While we are waiting for E.Shell to reply... I worked for a major rifle manufacturer, and I can tell you this. The number one reason for rifles returned to service with accuracy issues was copper fouling. In the OP's case he did right, once the accuracy falls off it's time to get the copper out. Could the issue be something else? Yes, but you always start with the easiest and most likely cause first. I clean the copper out at least once a year or if I am changing bullet brands as I have seen differences in the jacket gilding cause some loss of accuracy when you are doing comparisons / load workup and looking for the best performance.

I have seen some pretty drastic issues with jacket fouling too, and have come to realize that many calibers that were said to cause "shot out" barrels had actually deposited so much fouling that precision was gone. For a while, I actually shopped for bargains with "shot out" barrels that really only needed to be cleaned. While it is true that a bore in a hunting rifle can be "shot out", even the old radicals like the .264 Win and .220 Swift will need 600-800 or more slow-fire rounds to kill, but can foul enough to affect accuracy in 2-3 boxes of ammo. My .260 match gun has about 2,500 through it and while looking into it with a bore scope will give you nightmares, it still shoots 1/2 MOA.

It is possible to shine fouling enough that you can look up the bore with the naked eye and see nothing but 'clean', shiny surfaces. Until the advent of affordable bore scopes, literally no one knew what their bore really looked like. If they had cleaned it with Hoppes and patches came out clean, they assumed the rifle was clean. I have removed layer after layer of carbon/copper/carbon/copper from seemingly clean rifles

Having said that, I do agree with the premise in the video above that carbon is a more likely culprit for most folks and usually a much greater issue than jacket fouling.

Low volume shooters often do well to not worry about cleaning for fouling as much as for bore preservation. Improperly handled cleaning tools can cause their own problems, as alluded to by Doco Overboard above.

While I DO like the smell of Hoppes and used to buy it by the big bottles, I now consider it to be about one step above water when it comes to removing hard carbon and jacket fouling. Simply put, Hoppes was fine in its day, when the average person's fouling was mainly soft carbon found in hunting shotguns, and in "deer rifles" fired 6 times a year (your grandfather never fired 400 rounds through a personally owned centerfire rifle in TWO lifetimes). These days, our shooting volume has increased, bore ratios have changed and there are a multitude of better products available. "Better living through chemistry.".

My most challenging cartridge was a Hart-barreled 6.5-300 Weatherby, pushing a 140 grain bullet at close to 3,400 FPS with 83 grains of H-870. The original problem was that the longer I shot it, the more pressures rose, even though the load remained unchanged. I learned that I was developing a hard carbon ring and ended up with a Bon-Ami treatment to get it out. As the bore became rougher and more eroded, jacket fouling became a secondary issue. I really had to keep after it. If I didn't clean it every 20 rounds of so, bolt lift began to get sticky due to a hard carbon ring in the throat. That cartridge ate the barrel in 750 rounds. We used to half-joke about it costing $2/shot to fire it: $1 in components and $1 in barrel steel.

Most rifles, especially those with relatively conservative bore ratios like the .223 and .308, will take a VERY long time to foul enough to see a difference on target. With my .308 rental rifle, I could shoot 500 FGMM 175s and still not see a loss of precision.

Thanks for the responses, everyone. The first thing I tried was checking the torque on all of my scope rings and base. No problems there. I ordered some of my rifles favorite fodder last night so I'll get it to the range when it comes in.

Does the amount and (potential) negative effect of copper fouling increase with the velocity of the bullet? I could envision a 22-250 having a lot more problem with it compared to a 45-70.

Not only can the screws on scope mounts be an issue, but also check your stock screws.

There is a small chance that you may have bumped the crown, which will affect precision.

You might also double check your muzzle thread protector and install it to be just a little squeak past hand tight. The Army Marksmanship Unit only installs their flash suppressors hand-tight because excessive tightening has been shown to degrade precision.

You may want to revisit your scope's parallax and ocular focus adjustments. This post from 2015 may be helpful:
https://www.mdshooters.com/threads/adjusting-for-parallax.181409/page-2#post-4002020

Are you getting old? (rhetorical) I am, and have noticed some visual adjustments need to be changed to keep up with changing eyes. Are your eyeglass prescriptions current?

Yes, as velocities increase, so does fouling. Not only jacket fouling from increased pressure and friction, but also carbon due to the conditions required for greater acceleration.

"paperwork351" above mentions false hits (color on your patches) due to brass tools, which is a good point. That strong blue color I see in your pic is often associated with the brass jag. Bullet jacket fouling usually leans more toward greenish.

New 'production grade' rifle barrels are often rough and may foul excessively at first, or it could be ammo-related. Depending on what kind of ammo you're using, 400 rounds doesn't seem like enough to cause a noticeable change in precision. Some ammo does have jacket material that is more prone to fouling.

I would suggest first checking your rifle mechanics, then your scope's visual adjustments.

Giving it a good cleaning won't hurt. My own opinion is that you should skip the harsh chemicals and use Wipe-Out or one of the products suggested above. I hate to admit it, but I ruined one of my custom chrome-moly rifle barrels with a strong ammonia-based solvent by applying it, getting distracted and leaving it sit. When I patched it out two days later, it was orange rust and pits inside.

Once all is determined to be in order, try your precision with a good quality match grade ammo. For evaluating .23 & .308/7.62x51 rifle potential, I suggest FGMM.